To correct or not . . .

[mick]

Gary,
What you say is correct. But, two things about Padgett's post.
1. He won't make that mistake, hence nor the correction.
2. I love the way his mind works.
mick

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by mick
Gary,
What you say is correct. But, two things about Padgett's post.
1. He won't make that mistake, hence nor the correction.
2. I love the way his mind works.
mick

Mick - thanks for the kind words, but I admit I do make mistakes. I made one in a game yesterday. I let a kid get away with not giving me the ball when I asked him for it three times while he was complaining about non-calls. Not giving him a T was a mistake

As to loving the way my mind works, my response is "what mind". If I had any mind at all, I wouldn't be doing this. Who in their right mind would want to do a job in which you get tons of verbal abuse by people who know nothing about how you should do your job, when you are doing it correctly?

As to an earlier posted comment about what would I do if the tape of the game was reviewed and my "creative solution" revealed - I still say I heard my partner blow his whistle even if it's not on the tape (which it not always is). That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

If I have the opportunity to make sure the better team wins by correcting a mistake I made, I will try to do it.

And yes - our job is to make sure the better team wins! If you don't believe it, start a new thread and I'll be glad to explain it. This is a seminar I give at clinics.

[Camron Rust]

A nice solution is for the problem to work it self out. If both coaches are good sports then there is a legal way to sort it all out. It's done out of courtesy in other sports, why can't basketball be that way too. For example, I've heard that in soccer, it is not uncommon for a team to deliberately kick the ball out of bounds when the opponents have an injury. The opposing team returns the gesture of good sportsmanship by throwing the ball in to the team that kicked it out.

After team B scores the uncontested goal, stop the game, tell the coaches there is nothing you can do to fix your error but in the name of good sportsmanship B could fix it by allowing A to score uncontested and by throwing the ball in to A. The points would be effectively negated and A would have the ball. Propose it to the coaches and see what happens. It can't get any worse.

I suppose that you could call a T on coach B for unsportsmanlike conduct (similar to having the wrong player shoot a FT) by having his team deliberately take a throw-in that was not theirs. The 2 FTs could offset the points and A would get the ball back too. Again, all is evened out except that B's coach has a T which he deserves if he trys to win that way.

[Edited by Camron Rust on Oct 2nd, 2000 at 06:37 PM]

[mattbt]

NSW State League Grand Final Weekend 2000. Division One Women's Semi Final. Two teams playing are fierce rivals and have been for several years.

Five seconds remaining. Team A, up by two, are fouled on the rebound and have the ball on their own endline. Time out is called by Team B. Play resumes, active official administers the ball to Team B who inbound to the corner and nail the three.

It wasn't realised that a mistake was made until the ball hit the bottom of the net and the Team A coach went crazy. The game officials knew a mistake had been made but followed the rule to the letter and allowed the basket.

Team A inbound but to no avail. Team B wins by one and the officials are chased into the Referees room by plenty of irate fans and players all wanting blood.

If I was out there, the points would have stuck. Feel for the game gets thrown out the window when it is your mistake. Count the three and wear the consequences.

Matt

By the way, it really happened what made it worse was that Team B went on to win the Championship Game by a point also. Lucky win indeed.

[Admin]

The bottom line to all of this, keep your head in the game and this will never happen to you. You only have to worry about this and other rule applications like this when your mind starts to lose focus and get off track. We can debate all day what the result if we make a mistake, but this should never happen in the first place. Just my opinion.

I agree that it should never happen, but I have seen stranger things that shouldn't happen actually happen, so I wouldn't rule it out.

It has never happened to me, but I had a partner who almost did this exact thing. What would you do then? That is, what if it was your partner that made the mistake and it happened so quickly that the ball had already been thrown in by the time you recognized it?

Here's hoping that no one has this experience this year... But remember, sometimes bad things do happen to good referees!

[DrC.]

We went over this play last night at a Rules class. Case play 7.5.2B. Intructor is a previous Div I ref and now a Conf Supervisor. He said No correction can be made for the mistake by the official (just like the case book says).

But he did add, that he would give the team that was shortchanged the possession arrow (if they did not already have it).

[Todd VandenAkker]

Originally posted by DrC.
But he did add, that he would give the team that was shortchanged the possession arrow (if they did not already have it).

Did he say this "tongue in cheek"? I can respect those who insist no correction of the situation can be made under any circumstances, since that is the procedure outlined in the book. But to make such a definitive statement, only to turn around and suggest a procedure that is no more supported by the Rules than bringing the inbounds throw-in back?? That bespeaks a double-standard and does not promote a "fair" game any more than the first solution. If you're gonna stick with the exact mechanic from the Rules Book to handle this situation, then it seems to me you gotta stick with it all the way.

[DrC.]

Todd, I'll see him again Thurs night and will ask him about that. You are right, unless he can state some case. I even asked him what if they already have the arrow, he said then that too damn $@*(#@ bad !!!

[mick]

Originally posted by Todd VandenAkker

Did he say this "tongue in cheek"? I can respect those who insist no correction of the situation can be made under any circumstances, since that is the procedure outlined in the book. But to make such a definitive statement, only to turn around and suggest a procedure that is no more supported by the Rules than bringing the inbounds throw-in back?? That bespeaks a double-standard and does not promote a "fair" game any more than the first solution. If you're gonna stick with the exact mechanic from the Rules Book to handle this situation, then it seems to me you gotta stick with it all the way.

Todd,
I think you're correct in that assessment.
mick

[DrC.]

Todd, All

Well I saw him again last night (Ref Conf. Supervisor). I asked him about what he had said about giving the team that was short-changed the possesion arrow, and he said it WAS A RULE. He didn't say what rule, but he emphatically told me IT IS A RULE !!!

[mick]

Originally posted by DrC.
Todd, All

Well I saw him again last night (Ref Conf. Supervisor). I asked him about what he had said about giving the team that was short-changed the possesion arrow, and he said it WAS A RULE. He didn't say what rule, but he emphatically told me IT IS A RULE !!!

DrC.,
Well, I guess we can take that to the bank.
mick

[Todd VandenAkker]

Originally posted by mick
Well, I guess we can take that to the bank.
mick

I'm not so sure yet. DrC, while it intuitively makes sense to give the "wronged" team the next arrow if it's not already pointing in their direction, I can find no rule in either the Nat'l Fed or NCAA books that supports what your source is telling you, even though he was emphatic that it is a rule. It sounds like he's trying to justify another course of action that "makes sense," but is not actually based in writing. Not that bringing the throw-in back for a re-do is in the book either (it obviously is not), but his step re: the AP arrow just seems to skip the FIRST correcting action ('cuz the book says not to do that) and moves to a slightly less drastic, if you will, alternative that is nonetheless still not an approved mechanic or procedure. But maybe I just missed it in the book, so if someone could find it that would be great.

[walter]

It's not technically a rule but it is addressed in the NCAA rules interpretations and the NFHS case book. NCAA, BI-27, Rule 6, play 3, "Team B is entitled to a throw-in under the alternating possession process. The official, or the scorer, makes an error and the ball is erroneously awarded to Team A for the throw-in. RULING: Once the ball touches or is touched by an inbounds player, this situation cannot be corrected. However, Team B will make the throw-in when the next alternating possession occurs. Team B did not lose its alternating possession throw-in opportunity as a result of the error". In NFHS, casebook play 6.3.1D, "Team B is entitled to a throw-in under the alternating possession procedure. By mistake, Team A is given that throw-in. Can anything be done?" RULING: Not after the ball touches an inbounds player - it is too late to change anything. However, the possession arrow will remain or be pointed towards B's basket so that Team B will be entitled to and have the next alternating possession throw-in. A team should never be given two successive alternating possession throw-ins if the officials are aware of the mistake." The only way anything can be done in these situations is when it involves an alternating possession throw-in. For all other throw-ins, once the throw-in ends, there is nothing that can be done.

[Todd VandenAkker]

I agree about the alternating throw-in, but the situation this post has talked about was NOT an AP situation. That last sentence you quoted, Walt, would seem to support what I was saying--i.e., while 2 successive AP throw-ins to the same team should never be allowed, switching the arrow to the other team in a non-AP situation if it is not already in their favor is NOT an allowable procedure. Would it be the "fair" or "right" thing to do? Possibly. But no more so than a re-do on the throw-in. And neither solution is, technically, supported by the rules. IF I was going to use either one, then I'd opt for the re-do, DEPENDING on the game circumstances (but we don't have to go there again).

[Edited by Todd VandenAkker on Oct 6th, 2000 at 09:10 AM]

[BktBallRef]

You're correct Todd. If an AP situation is handled wrong, then the team that didn't get the AP will get the next one. But, as you said, this thread is not about an AP sitch. It is about a throw-in and, as it has been said over and over again, it cannot be corrected.