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-   -   To correct or not . . . (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/943-correct-not.html)

Todd VandenAkker Fri Sep 29, 2000 07:53am

OK, I haven't been around on this forum for a while, and topics seem a bit slow right now, so here's a question posed to me by another veteran official last night: Throw-in on sideline near half-court for Team A, following brief delay for subs to come in and out. Players position themselves in A's front court, anticipating the throw-in, but a Team B player steps OOB to receive the ball without the official noticing the wrong color. He hands her the ball, and she promptly throws it to a teammate who streaks down to her own basket for an uncontested layup, while everyone else is standing on the other end of the court. The official, being probably semi-conscious, doesn't even grasp what has happened until after the basket is made.

So the question is: Ignoring for the moment whether Player B knowingly accepted the ball incorrectly, do you follow the book by swallowing your pride and NOT correcting the mistake (it's not technically a correctable error), or do you call it back, wipe out the bucket, and re-administer the throw-in to the correct team? I.e., do you follow the book to the letter, or do you do the "right" or "fair" thing?

Huskerblue Fri Sep 29, 2000 08:09am

Everyone knew what was supposed to happen. I would say do the right thing and bring it back. It's the fairest thing to do.

mick Fri Sep 29, 2000 08:24am

Quote:

Originally posted by Todd VandenAkker
....
So the question is: Ignoring for the moment whether Player B knowingly accepted the ball incorrectly, do you follow the book by swallowing your pride and NOT correcting the mistake (it's not technically a correctable error), or do you call it back, wipe out the bucket, and re-administer the throw-in to the correct team? I.e., do you follow the book to the letter, or do you do the "right" or "fair" thing?

Todd,
Live with such a mistake. Do not attempt to change or correct the uncorrectable. Apologize, explain, live with the abuse that is earned. When we screw up badly, we remember.
mick

BktBallRef Fri Sep 29, 2000 09:22am

Mick is right. You have to live with such a mistake. It doesn't really matter what is fair. Is it fair to call a foul on a clean bock? No, it isn't but it happens. Live with the mistake and learn from it.

Tony

DrC. Fri Sep 29, 2000 10:07am

Todd, Welcome Back... I was wondering where you've been. You're usually very active on this board.

I thought that was a correctable error. I seem to remember we had a discussion last Feb that as long as the ball was not made live after the next dead ball, it was correctable.

Plus, if the team that was to receive the ball seemed confused, I would definitely correct it. If nobody else noticed it, maybe then you let it go and have a stiff drink after the game and don't forget to be more careful next time.

[Edited by DrC. on Sep 29th, 2000 at 12:42 PM]

Brian Watson Fri Sep 29, 2000 10:16am

I feel depends on where you realize it. If the girl jumps in and grabs the ball (I have had this happen) you just blow everything dead before things get going and reset with the proper team. I you have let it get to the point where a basket is being scored (as described), then you have a learning situation. Suck it up, hold the T, and take what the coach is about to give you, because you earned it. On a side note, where was this guys' partner? When I make final eye contact to let my partner know I'm ready, I alsways glance to make sure we have the right team coming in. It is just a thing I do, and in this case it might have saved the need for that ref to break out butt implants.

Todd - Did this actually happen, or was this just a "what if"?

Bart Tyson Fri Sep 29, 2000 10:44am

OK Todd, You have to have a feel for the game and make your decission based on the game situation. The obvious is team B is up by 20. Bring it back for a redo. College game i favor on doing the right thing. All things being equal, in most cases i would bring the ball back. You worded this in such a way as it might be too late. At the very minimum i would stop play and explain to both coaches MY mistake and take the heat from the coach. Last thing If close game toward the end of game, I'm doing a redo.

PAULK1 Fri Sep 29, 2000 10:50am

The dreaded dead ball mechanics claims another victim!
While this error is not correctable maybe the things that led up to the error can be.

From the time the whistle was blown the official whose resposibility to inbound the ball should have gone to the spot, held the ball on his side to which it was going, let your partner bring in the subs(unless after a foul) let your partner get to his position, both count players, make eye contact then place the ball at the disposal of the thrower-in. Its always not doing the little things that get us in the most trouble. During delays or time outs is not our chance to rest it is the time for us to communicate the most.

mick Fri Sep 29, 2000 11:36am

Quote:

Originally posted by Bart Tyson
OK Todd, You have to have a feel for the game and make your decission based on the game situation. The obvious is team B is up by 20. Bring it back for a redo. College game i favor on doing the right thing. All things being equal, in most cases i would bring the ball back. You worded this in such a way as it might be too late. At the very minimum i would stop play and explain to both coaches MY mistake and take the heat from the coach. Last thing If close game toward the end of game, I'm doing a redo.
Bart,
I'm thinking you wouldn't "redo", cuz you wouldn't even get in that predicament.
mick

Todd VandenAkker Fri Sep 29, 2000 12:32pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Brian Watson

Todd - Did this actually happen, or was this just a "what if"?

Yes, actually the veteran official who raised the issue to me sheepishly admitted it happened to him (he's a good ref, but had a temporary mental lapse). I thought it would raise some interesting replies, since it's always tough to go out on a limb and suggest NOT following the letter-of-the-law in such situations. If we take it upon ourselves too often to decide what is "good for the game" and do things differently than the book tells us, we risk losing some credibility ("He always just does things his own way.") and consistency among our fellow officials.

That said, I would tend to agree with Bart in that how I would handle that situation would depend on WHEN I discovered my mistake and what the game circumstances are. If I realized it quickly as the throw-in is made and the dribbler is heading the "wrong" way, I would whistle the play dead immediately and start over. If it's a blowout game and the incorrect basket has been made by the losing team, I might simply eat crow, explain to the coaches that I screwed up but can't change it, then get on with the game. If the team ahead in the blowout was the one that scored, I'd probably bring it back after explaining my screwup (the losing team is already demoralized, without me adding more their nightmare). The harder scenario, I think, is if the game is reasonably close and what you do can impact the game. By rule, we can't change things. Yet, if everyone in the gym knows it's an obvious error, I doubt one would get significant protest by explaining that it was the official's mistake and that we're going to re-set the clock and re-administer the throw in. So, I know there are some who will disagree that we have any choice in the matter, but my take on how to handle this specific situation is . . . "It depends."

[Edited by Todd VandenAkker on Oct 2nd, 2000 at 03:11 PM]

DrC. Fri Sep 29, 2000 12:51pm

Ok, then tell me why this is different then the
"PLAY OF THE WEEK for BASKETBALL" on the front Page of
this forum. If we can add points for a CORRECTION, why then can't we take away.
Todd, I understand what you mean by it depends, but let's say it was a close H.S. Varsity game and 2 arch rivals.
You could be eating and receiving more than crow after the game.

Mark Padgett Fri Sep 29, 2000 01:12pm

Of course we should all strive to do what's fair. Sometimes, you just have to be creative to do it. Try this next time something like this happens. Don't count the basket, put the time back on the clock (if that's critical at that point), give the ball to the correct team and explain to everyone that one of your partners blew his whistle before the ball was inbounded, thereby creating a deal ball and nullifying the play. If the coach objects, just say he must not have heard the whistle, but it was blown nevertheless.

PAULK1 Fri Sep 29, 2000 01:28pm

Lets say its a close H.S. varsity game, lets say you stopped play took away the score and gave the ball back
to the team it was supposed to go to, lets say the team
whose score you took away lost by 1 point, Now they decide
protest under the condition that you misapplied a rule how are you going to explain to that state commisioner that you
knew the rule but decided you would apply your own solution
to the problem because you felt guilty for screwing it up in the first place. remember the old adage 2 wrongs don't make a right. It depends might be the right answer for
different levels of play(younger rec league)but when the stakes get higher watch out.

Gary Brendemuehl Fri Sep 29, 2000 04:43pm

I agree with every one who says to do what is fair. The question is what is fair? The stated intent and purpose of the rules

"... are intended to create a balance of play; to provide equal opportunity between the offense and the defense; ... to create an atmosphere of sportsmanship and fair play...".

Correctly applying the rule relating to the wrong team inbounding the ball results in fair play. Setting aside the rule (or making up your own) results in unfair play.

In regard to Mark Padgett's creative solution, I can only say that I am disappointed in his response. I have read his posts on this and other forums and respect what he has to say. But Mark, I think you kicked this one. The common response of "Are you questioning my judgement or my integrity?" by a referee to a coach's complaint of unfair application of the rules would have to be answered by "Both" in this case.

But then, I am

Just a Coach

hoopsrefBC Fri Sep 29, 2000 05:02pm

Quote:

Originally posted by DrC.
Ok, then tell me why this is different then the
"PLAY OF THE WEEK for BASKETBALL" on the front Page of
this forum. If we can add points for a CORRECTION, why then can't we take away.
Todd, I understand what you mean by it depends, but let's say it was a close H.S. Varsity game and 2 arch rivals.
You could be eating and receiving more than crow after the game.

You can take away points, two direct situations that i know of are: 1. The scorekeepers incorrectly awards three instead of two on the scorebook( error is found before approval of the book),or 2. an incorrect shooter attemps and makes free throws.(correctable error). cancell points and award shots to correct shooter.

The key here is that the officials mistake in inbounding the ball to the wrong team isn't correctable.
Game Management People!!!

keep smiling
SH


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