All-female crews

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett

I thought most people go to Yankee Stadium to boo the Red Sox.

You don't need to go to the Stadium to boo the Sox. Even people who go to see NY's JV team (at Shea Stadium) boo the Sox.

[mikesears]

Jeff, please don't think of this as my attempt to try to pick an argument. I just wanted to point out the falicy in some of your statements.

Originally posted by JRutledge
"Most of the people in the military now are there to go to school, not go to war. That is the reason they joined in many cases."

(Later you state):
That is a statistical fact.

First, I haven't seen statistics produces to qualify the statement as a statistical fact. All I saw was an interpretation of some supposed statistics that exist "out there".

Originally posted by JRutledge
We have a volunteer Military.

This is the first fact stated in the post. We can all agree that our military is volunteery because we do not have a draft and we are not FORCED to serve.

Originally posted by JRutledge
Most of the individuals that are in the Military have used the Military to get an education. Most of todays Military used the G.I. Bill or joined as a reserve to pay for the education.

First, I have no idea how many "most" is. Is most 75%, 51%. Most indicates a majority but it doesn't indicate how MUCH of a majority.

Second, simply because those who join the military take advantage of a service offered isn't proof in and of itself. All that can be stated as fact is that many people who enroll in the military take advantage of the educational opportunities. I think we would be foolish NOT to believe there are a few who join the military for the GI bill benefits. Most is carrying this too far in my opinion.

Originally posted by JRutledge
Over 30% of the Military is African-American alone

I might be able to agree with this because here is the first statistic offered. This is a number that can be verified

Originally posted by JRutledge
and most used the Military to go to college.

Here is the "most" statement again. How many is "most."

Originally posted by JRutledge
I know of several people now that have been deployed to Iraq or sent in support of this war, all in those cases got money for their educations.

Really, what you are saying is that, from your experience, those who joined the military did so because they wanted to take advantage of the GI bil. You may be carrying this too far but stating, "most of those who join the military". That is A LOT of people.

Originally posted by JRutledge
If that is a generalization, show me that it is not true.

It is a generalization and it cannot be proven until we have a working defintion of "most". If you had said "all", it could easily be disproven because "all" suggest 100%.

Originally posted by JRutledge
But I really do not care if you show it, prove it or not. The information is out there and you can find it or not.

An unsupported vague opinion is not fact.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Dan_ref


Most people who go to Yankee Stadium will use the restroom. Therefore people go to Yankee Stadium to use the rest room.

Yankee Statium?

I guess that makes sense.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally posted by JRutledge

I just read a report that 34% of the United States Armed Forces was African-American. Even if it is 20%, that is way above the percentage of African-Americans in the larger society which is around 12%. To me personally, that is a problem on many levels.

Again, if you think it is not above 50%, then show me the percentage that is not. I have seen and read reports that most of the military uses education services. And if you think every joined the military to serve the country for the same reasons you think they did, I will always take issue with that. Everyone does not view this current war or the reasons for what happen on 9-11-01 the same. They just don't.

Peace [/B]

The Department of Defense website that Dan referenced shows that the branch with the highest percentage of African-Americans is the Army, with 23.0%. The Marines are the lowest, with 12.8%. The Air Force and the Navy are both right around 20%. What report did you read? Where can I get it?
Beyond that, when you look at those fields who are most likely to be killed or wounded in combat, African-Americans make up a decidedly smaller percentage of the forces. From what I've seen, that percentage is far more commisserate with their overall representation in the population at large.
I would like to know why you see this as a problem, especially in a volunteer military (as opposed to forced service with its inevitable loopholes). Frankly, I've found the diversity to be one of the more refreshing aspects of my military service.

As for what percentage of people joined for the military benefits: I don't know. It could be over 50%. It could be 10%. Given that well over 50% of the military (Active, Reserve, and Guard) that I've been in contact with are beyond their initial enlistment, I can only assume they are in for reasons other than the GI Bill.
The point about Yankee Stadium is valid, if comic. The burden is on you to show why "most" of those in the military joined for school.
BTW, I'd say virtually none of them joined to go to war. They joined to serve their country in a very meaningful and real way. Many did so with the nice GI Bill incentive, but to suggest that was their sole reason for entering is quite a stretch.

Peace (even if it means war first)

Adam

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by mikesears


An unsupported vague opinion is not fact.

You are absolutely correct. So all the information in opposition is exactly the same as my claim. Not one person has given me any information that it is not true. Not one person has given a statisitic. So it is also not true that people join the military service for God and Country, which appears what you are saying. Because what are the reasons they do join? Did they join because of September 11, 2001. Did they join because there parents were in the Military? Did they join for a sense of duty to the country? Did they join to avoid prosecution or terms of a probation? I have not heard you say why they join, you are just saying I am wrong. That makes sense.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge

Yankee Statium?

I guess that makes sense.

Peace

Your inability to understand the analogy does not surprise me.

[mikesears]

Just read a report at

http://www4.nas.edu/news.nsf/isbn/0309085314?OpenDocument

It doesn't specfically address this topic, but it does state the following:

"In addition, fewer young people list 'doing something for my country' as an important occupational objective. Because youth who value making a contribution to their country are more likely to join the military, the committee pointed out that promoting such patriotic ideals in young people will expand the pool of likely recruits."
(emphasis mine).

[mikesears]

Originally posted by JRutledge

You are absolutely correct. So all the information in opposition is exactly the same as my claim. Not one person has given me any information that it is not true. Not one person has given a statisitic. So it is also not true that people join the military service for God and Country, which appears what you are saying. Because what are the reasons they do join? Did they join because of September 11, 2001. Did they join because there parents were in the Military? Did they join for a sense of duty to the country? Did they join to avoid prosecution or terms of a probation? I have not heard you say why they join, you are just saying I am wrong. That makes sense.

Peace

I wan't the one to offer up a theory as to why people join the military.

I was only pointing out that your theory was using flawed reasoning.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Snaqwells

The Department of Defense website that Dan referenced shows that the branch with the highest percentage of African-Americans is the Army, with 23.0%. The Marines are the lowest, with 12.8%. The Air Force and the Navy are both right around 20%. What report did you read? Where can I get it?
Beyond that, when you look at those fields who are most likely to be killed or wounded in combat, African-Americans make up a decidedly smaller percentage of the forces. From what I've seen, that percentage is far more commisserate with their overall representation in the population at large.
I would like to know why you see this as a problem, especially in a volunteer military (as opposed to forced service with its inevitable loopholes). Frankly, I've found the diversity to be one of the more refreshing aspects of my military service.

As for what percentage of people joined for the military benefits: I don't know. It could be over 50%. It could be 10%. Given that well over 50% of the military (Active, Reserve, and Guard) that I've been in contact with are beyond their initial enlistment, I can only assume they are in for reasons other than the GI Bill.
The point about Yankee Stadium is valid, if comic. The burden is on you to show why "most" of those in the military joined for school.
BTW, I'd say virtually none of them joined to go to war. They joined to serve their country in a very meaningful and real way. Many did so with the nice GI Bill incentive, but to suggest that was their sole reason for entering is quite a stretch.

Peace (even if it means war first)

Adam

The problem what I have with your agrument, you come down to what the essence of what I am saying and have absolutely no way of confirming or denying my claim. You say you do not know, then say I am wrong and you "do not know." Then you say, "it could be 10% or it could be 50%." Then you say, "They joined to serve their country in a very meaningful and real way." You have statisical evidence for this claim? So you can say with a straight face, they joined the military for reasons to serve this country in a meaningful and real way? Why can they not join the military because they had very little options? Why could they have not joined the military because their parents were about to throw them out of the house? Please tell me, I would really like to know.

Peace

[Mregor]

Originally posted by JRutledge

That is a statistical fact. We have a volunteer Military. Most of the individuals that are in the Military have used the Military to get an education. Most of todays Military used the G.I. Bill or joined as a reserve to pay for the education. Over 30% of the Military is African-American alone and most used the Military to go to college. I know of several people now that have been deployed to Iraq or sent in support of this war, all in those cases got money for their educations. If that is a generalization, show me that it is not true. But I really do not care if you show it, prove it or not. The information is out there and you can find it or not.

Peace

You should practice the old proverb that states: Better to have people think you are an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Your claims are your personal opinion and not supported by any statistic. BTW, in the Air Force, the percentage of African-Americans is 16%, not 30. This is supported by fact. http://www.afa.org/magazine/chart/0101chart.html
I don't know about the other branches, the Army is probably somewhat higher but not enough to make it 30% in all the military. Don't insult all military members, me included, by saying that we joined the military to get an education. Believe it or not, some of us actually joined to serve our country.

Mregor

[Dan_ref]

Originally posted by JRutledge

You are absolutely correct. So all the information in opposition is exactly the same as my claim. Not one person has given me any information that it is not true. Not one person has given a statisitic. So it is also not true that people join the military service for God and Country, which appears what you are saying. Because what are the reasons they do join? Did they join because of September 11, 2001. Did they join because there parents were in the Military? Did they join for a sense of duty to the country? Did they join to avoid prosecution or terms of a probation? I have not heard you say why they join, you are just saying I am wrong. That makes sense.

Peace

This might take you a while Rut, it's got numbers in it.

http://www.defenselink.mil/execsec/adr97/appg.html

So here's the bottom line: the report looks at things that bring kids into the recruiter's office (education, career training, change of environement...etc) and things that push them out (fear of war, not wanting a regimented life, etc). But this quote tells us WHY THEY JOIN (ie the single most common factor for those who sign the papers). Not surprising, when you think about it.

As other studies have shown, Joiners tend to have family members who are veterans; they tend to have extensive contact with people serving in the military. However, the majority of youth, regardless of propensity, have had some direct contact with others who have served or are serving in the military. YATS statistics show that more youth are influenced, either positively or negatively, by conversations with people who are, or have been, in military service, than by recruiters or advertising.

And BTW, my own experience tells me there is not a recruiter alive today who will talk to a kid who is in legal trouble. I could be wrong, but I doubt it.

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by mikesears


I wan't the one to offer up a theory as to why people join the military.

I was only pointing out that your theory was using flawed reasoning.

OK, fair enough. But then to say I am wrong and offer no information that is specific, is extreamly flawed to me. If you are going to say I am wrong or my argument is flawed, I would expect some specific information suggesting that this is not true. Not just "you are wrong." You have to do better than that.

If I was to write a paper or thesis on this very issue and read some statistics, I cannot just say, "the author's position on this issue is wrong." I would have to give specifics or other studies that might contradict the original statement. I have read and have seen reports that suggested that over 50% of the military is involved in the G.I. Bill or other education services offered as a result of their enlistment. I can honestly tell you that I do not know the exact source it came from or when the report was taken. But to suggest that I am only wrong because it does not jive with your personal beliefs is very flawed. No one has really offered the reason they do join.

Peace

[Adam]

Originally posted by JRutledge
The problem what I have with your agrument, you come down to what the essence of what I am saying and have absolutely no way of confirming or denying my claim. You say you do not know, then say I am wrong and you "do not know." Then you say, "it could be 10% or it could be 50%." Then you say, "They joined to serve their country in a very meaningful and real way." You have statisical evidence for this claim? So you can say with a straight face, they joined the military for reasons to serve this country in a meaningful and real way? Why can they not join the military because they had very little options? Why could they have not joined the military because their parents were about to throw them out of the house? Please tell me, I would really like to know.

Peace [/B]

No, I don't have statistical evidence to back up my claim, any more than you do for yours. However, I'm not going to sit here and defend my statement as "statistical fact" as you have yours. My statement was more of an effort to point out that virtually no one joins "to go to war." There are countless options for why, and the list you gave is a good start. Those reasons are also good alternatives to your claim, that most join to pay for school.
You offered the claim, you stood by it as "statistical fact," I did not.
You might be right, but you won't prove it, even though you say it's fact. You offer one unverified statistic; that most use the GI Bill. Logical reasoning does not lead me to believe that everyone who uses the GI Bill joined just to pay for school. Every military member with dependents also gets a housing allowance, but I doubt you'd claim we got married (or had kids) just to get the housing allowance.
For crying out loud, just admit you misspoke and we can all move on. You made a decent point, that going willy-nilly into a war is not a good idea; and that people in the military don't generally want a war if it's not necessary. But it was drowned out by your insistence on holding to unverified claims of fact.

Adam

[JRutledge]

Originally posted by Mregor


You should practice the old proverb that states: Better to have people think you are an idiot than to open your mouth and remove all doubt. Your claims are your personal opinion and not supported by any statistic. BTW, in the Air Force, the percentage of African-Americans is 16%, not 30. This is supported by fact. http://www.afa.org/magazine/chart/0101chart.html
I don't know about the other branches, the Army is probably somewhat higher but not enough to make it 30% in all the military. Don't insult all military members, me included, by saying that we joined the military to get an education. Believe it or not, some of us actually joined to serve our country.

Mregor

Is the Air Force only one branch of the Military? Still higher than the population of this country. That is the actual point, not the exact percentage. It shows how "smart" your argument is, you are spending time arguing a number and not what the number means.

I guess sense you are calling folks names now, why do you not look up the numbers of what the percentage of all African-Americans in the Armed Services (BTW, that is not just the Navy). I do not know about you, but the fact that the numbers are that high when the overall percentages of the population are that low, is not only alarming to me and disturbing. But sense you think you know everything, I will let you figure out what why that is.

Peace

[mikesears]

Originally posted by JRutledge

OK, fair enough. But then to say I am wrong and offer no information that is specific, is extreamly flawed to me. If you are going to say I am wrong or my argument is flawed, I would expect some specific information suggesting that this is not true. Not just "you are wrong." You have to do better than that.

If I was to write a paper or thesis on this very issue and read some statistics, I cannot just say, "the author's position on this issue is wrong." I would have to give specifics or other studies that might contradict the original statement. I have read and have seen reports that suggested that over 50% of the military is involved in the G.I. Bill or other education services offered as a result of their enlistment. I can honestly tell you that I do not know the exact source it came from or when the report was taken. But to suggest that I am only wrong because it does not jive with your personal beliefs is very flawed. No one has really offered the reason they do join.

Peace

All I can say is that you haven't provided the facts. If I've made the claim that people join the military for other reasons rather than the educational opportunities, I am wrong to have done so. I will restate what I believe:

I have no idea why people join the militray.

I've done a little research on the web and posted what I found and that's where I am going to stop because I really don't have much interest in the subject nor the time to do extended research.

I don't doubt the military uses all means at its disposal to get people to join. It's kind of like recruiting for any major life event. Colleges will woo prospective athletes through any means available to them. I doubt the military is any different and the G.I. bill would seem like a major advantage to poorer people considering college.