The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #46 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 02:17am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,200
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
It depends who "you" is. If "you" means table crew, there is such a NFHS rule. If the crowd noise is so loud that the officials can't hear the horn, then they try to get help from the table. If the crew at the table can't agree, then use Rule 2-13: If table officials disagree, the goal shall count and/or the foul shall be penalized, unless the referee has knowledge which alters such ruling.
The officials (the referees in striped shirts) did not ask the table for help. The officials talked amongst each other and made a decision. And it does not appear that there is much disagreement amongst the official (in the striped shirts and one the floor) in any way.

Here is another thing I saw on another video. It might be possible that the officials did not feel the clock was started properly. So this is not just an issue of whether the shot got off in time, but if the time ran off the clock at the right time as well.

Here is that video I am referring to.

Another angle and uncut video from the shot to the discussion to the decision by the officials

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #47 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 02:48am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 18,804
Out Of The Sky Into The Book ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
The officials did not ask the table for help. The officials talked amongst each other and made a decision. And it does not appear that there is much disagreement amongst the official in any way.
I agree. The officials did not approach the table crew for help, and thus, in this specific case, this rule did not kick in.

I only referred to this rule to clear up, for rookie officials, coaches, and fans, who may view this Forum, your earlier post: "Where is the rules reference to back that up? Because there is nothing in any rule I have seen that says you can count a basket just because you are not sure. You pulled that out of the sky. That is why you have yet to show the reference yet."

If your "you" is only referring to officials, you are 100% correct, there is no rules reference. However, if there is such a rule reference if "you" refers to the table crew: Rule 2-13. So socalreff didn't pull the rule out of the sky, he pulled it out of the NFHS rule book, however, he confused the officials with the table crew.
Reply With Quote
  #48 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 02:52am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Posts: 162
well people could keep arguing this for a long time and I'm sure they will back where the game took place. But here is too a great rematch whenever they have it. it's pandemonium baby. wow I spelled pandemonium right on the first try. what great speling.
Reply With Quote
  #49 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 03:12am
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,200
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
I agree. The officials did not approach the table crew for help, and thus, in this specific case, this rule did not kick in.

I only referred to this rule to clear up, for rookie officials, coaches, and fans, who may view this Forum, your earlier post: "Where is the rules reference to back that up? Because there is nothing in any rule I have seen that says you can count a basket just because you are not sure. You pulled that out of the sky. That is why you have yet to show the reference yet."

If your "you" is only referring to officials, you are 100% correct, there is no rules reference. However, if there is such a rule reference if "you" refers to the table crew: Rule 2-13. So socalreff didn't pull the rule out of the sky, he pulled it out of the NFHS rule book, however, he confused the officials with the table crew.
Billy, he pulled it out of the sky because not only did the officials not disagree, that is not even relevant to the case we are talking about. And 2-13 is about timers, substitutes and equipment, which neither is at issue in this play. And 2-13 talks about the equipment failing and that also did not take place in this situation in any way.

I guess if a Martian came out of the sky and shot the calling official with a laser, then we might institute Rule 2-3, but that did not take place either. It is one thing to claim something took place and reference a rule, but that is not what took place at all. And that rules reference (which he has yet to give) had nothing to do with the table officials disagreeing. The table officials were not involved at all.

Peace
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #50 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 03:21am
Fav theme: Roundball Rock
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Near Dog River (sorta)
Posts: 8,557
My first impression was that the shot was released in time.

After watching a couple of times, I did have some doubts though. Watching the video again with some stopping at key points, and with the YouTube video, I think it is clear that the shot should have counted, and therefore Spartanburg should have won.

If this event teaches anything - it is that you do need 3 officials, and that video replay is needed: high definition video replay, with frame by frame analysis.

Edit: another angle, shows even more conclusively that the shot is good. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01xPmkNsvwU
__________________
Pope Francis

Last edited by JugglingReferee; Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 03:23am.
Reply With Quote
  #51 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 03:25am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 18,804
"Yabba-Dabba-Doo!"

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
I guess if a Martian came out of the sky and shot the calling official with a laser, then we might institute Rule 2-3. Peace
Reply With Quote
  #52 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 05:14am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 314
Book Citing

Quote:
Originally Posted by JRutledge
Billy, he pulled it out of the sky because not only did the officials not disagree, that is not even relevant to the case we are talking about. And 2-13 is about timers, substitutes and equipment, which neither is at issue in this play. And 2-13 talks about the equipment failing and that also did not take place in this situation in any way.

I guess if a Martian came out of the sky and shot the calling official with a laser, then we might institute Rule 2-3, but that did not take place either. It is one thing to claim something took place and reference a rule, but that is not what took place at all. And that rules reference (which he has yet to give) had nothing to do with the table officials disagreeing. The table officials were not involved at all.

Peace
It was 68 seconds from the time the ball went in until the referee called it no good. Are you telling me that it would take them that long if they all agreed?
And if they weren't sure, why not ask the timer?

A.R. 14. In a game with no official courtside television monitor, the red light
or LED lights that signal the end of the last period cannot be seen nor
can the game-clock horn be heard. The officials disagree whether the
ball was in flight during a try for field goal or whether a foul occurred
before time expired.
RULING: The final decision shall be made by the referee. The official timer
shall indicate if the ball was in flight before the red light or LED lights signal
was activated or before the game-clock horn sounded only when requested
to do so by the referee. The referee shall use his or her best judgment; but
when the evidence for counting or not counting the goal or foul is equal, the
referee shall rule that the goal counts
and that the foul shall be charged. In
a game with an official courtside television monitor and a game clock with
a 10th-of-a second display, the status of the try for goal and the committed
foul shall be ascertained with the use of the courtside monitor.
(Rule 2-10.15.c)
__________________
"Never mistake activity for achievement."
Reply With Quote
  #53 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 06:32am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,213
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
It depends who "you" is. If "you" means table crew, there is such a NFHS rule. If the crowd noise is so loud that the officials can't hear the horn, then they try to get help from the table. If the crew at the table can't agree, then use Rule 2-13: If table officials disagree, the goal shall count and/or the foul shall be penalized, unless the referee has knowledge which alters such ruling.
Go back and read rule 2-13, Billy. Specifically read the part right at the front that states "If the timer's signal FAILS to sound or is NOT heard....." In the situation being discussed, the timer's signal DID sound and WAS heard. That's why 2-13 isn't applicable in any way and is completely irrelevant to this discussion.
Reply With Quote
  #54 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 06:37am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,213
Quote:
Originally Posted by BillyMac
If your "you" is only referring to officials, you are 100% correct, there is no rules reference. However, if there is such a rule reference if "you" refers to the table crew: Rule 2-13. So socalreff didn't pull the rule out of the sky, he pulled it out of the NFHS rule book, however, he confused the officials with the table crew.
Again, 2-13 is only applicable and relevant if the horn didn't sound or wasn't heard. In the situation being discussed, the horn DID sound and WAS heard. That's why socalreff's rule reference wasn't and isn't germane to this discussion in any way.
Reply With Quote
  #55 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 06:52am
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Aug 2001
Location: Hell
Posts: 20,213
Quote:
Originally Posted by socalreff
And if they weren't sure, why not ask the timer?

A.R. 14. In a game with no official courtside television monitor, the red light
or LED lights that signal the end of the last period cannot be seen nor
can the game-clock horn be heard. The officials disagree whether the
ball was in flight during a try for field goal or whether a foul occurred
before time expired.
They didn't ask the timer because they discussed it amongst themselves and mutually concluded that the goal didn't count. Iow, they were sure.

Disregarding the fact that you're citing an NCAA rule to try and back up your argument in a situation that happened under NFHS rules, why are you trying to apply a rule that is ONLY relevant in situations where officials disagree?

In the situation being discussed, the officials did NOT disagree. No rules reference cited by yourself to date has had any relevancy at all to this discussion.
Reply With Quote
  #56 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 07:30am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 655
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShadowStripes
Incredible finish. Watch the last minute.

http://videos.thestate.com/vmix_host...dia?id=1746223

Violation White A1
9-1-9
Green gets another FT.
Reply With Quote
  #57 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 07:38am
Esteemed Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Connecticut
Posts: 18,804
Correct ...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
Again, 2-13 is only applicable and relevant if the horn didn't sound or wasn't heard. In the situation being discussed, the horn DID sound and WAS heard. That's why socalreff's rule reference wasn't and isn't germane to this discussion in any way.
100% correct. At least your final sentence is well worded. socalref's wasn't germane to this specific situation. But he didn't pull the rule out of the sky, he pulled it out of the wrong section of the rule book, like using Rule 1-6 Free Throw Line to explain a false double foul. Please reread my earlier posts in this thread. As you may already know about me, I like to expand the limits of original posts, to make sure rookie officials fully understand some rules and interpretations. Again, you're right, in this specific case, but there is a rule that says if "someone" disagrees, the basket counts. The "someone" must be the table crew, not an official. socaref confused this important difference. I wanted to make sure that others, especially rookie officials, didn't as well.

Last edited by BillyMac; Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 07:47am.
Reply With Quote
  #58 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 11:10am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 2,842
"The officials on the court I am sure had a different take on the play and what they saw on a video."

Jeff........ typo? Unless you meant when they took a peek later.

Last edited by fullor30; Wed Mar 05, 2008 at 11:17am.
Reply With Quote
  #59 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 02:03pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2001
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 1,104
http://tinyurl.com/35oere

Frame 10
Reply With Quote
  #60 (permalink)  
Old Wed Mar 05, 2008, 02:11pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 1,896
Quote:
Originally Posted by Larks
Wow. Just wow. That's about as close as possible. So, somewhere in the 1/30th of a second between the ball being still in his hand and the ball being away from his hand, the light comes on. Add in that they believe the horn sounds after the light is visible, and it's a very strange play.

Thanks for the link.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On


Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Final Final Final List of Most Misunderstood Basketball Rules BillyMac Basketball 1 Fri Oct 14, 2005 11:23am
You make the call BayouUmp Baseball 53 Tue Jul 20, 2004 04:44pm
Did I make the right call? Time_Blue Softball 11 Wed Apr 21, 2004 02:03pm
Make the call db Softball 5 Mon Apr 16, 2001 02:55pm
What call would you make? Gre144 Baseball 1 Tue Mar 20, 2001 10:31pm


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:37am.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1