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Old Tue Apr 20, 2004, 10:04pm
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Runner 1 on third, R2 on second, and R3 on first, two out. Batter 1 hits a ground ball to shortstop, gets R2 in rundown between second and third. R2 is tagged out clearly after R1 has scored. Even though R2 was forced to third I say the run counts because it was a tag. Was I right?
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Old Tue Apr 20, 2004, 10:12pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by Time_Blue
Runner 1 on third, R2 on second, and R3 on first, two out. Batter 1 hits a ground ball to shortstop, gets R2 in rundown between second and third. R2 is tagged out clearly after R1 has scored. Even though R2 was forced to third I say the run counts because it was a tag. Was I right?
I'll take a shot, not fully understanding the play. I would think run would NOT count since R2 was obligated to move to third by being forced.

A better question is, why are then running down a runner who was forced to move up to next base?
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Old Tue Apr 20, 2004, 11:09pm
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A better question is, why are then running down a runner who was forced to move up to

JV girls game, third baseman didn't want to take her eye off the runner and couldn't feel the base with her foot.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 12:02am
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I hope that run didn't decide the game 'cause it didn't count.

No run scores when the third out is on the batter-runner before reaching first or on any other runner forced to advance because the batter became a batter-runner.

It doesn't matter how the out is made on the forced runner, tag the runner, tag the base, or appeal a missed base. If she was forced, and it is the third out, no runs.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 08:11am
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Dakota, and all:

Is the appeal of the missed base (even if was the base forced to) considered to be a timing play (POE #1, J.-highlighted rule change for 2004-see bleow), so the run would score if the appeal came after scoring runner does so before the appeal on the missed base is made?

I find this confusing, as the highlighted type seems to contradict the previous text listed in J, which states that an appeal honored at a base which a runner was forced to being the third out nullifies a run from scoring. So exactly what is the purpose of the highlighted-type change to this rule? Does it make it the appeal into a timing paly or not?

Here it is: ON AN APPEAL PLAY, THE FORCE OUT IS DETERMINED WHEN THE APPEAL IS MADE, NOT WHEN THE INFRACTION OCCURRED.

Thanks.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 08:21am
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What the heck, I'll take a stab at it. How I interperet that is that the force out is called when appealed NOT when it is seen. I think the fact that they specificaly state the FORCE OUT is called, answers that it is still a force out and would nullify the run. Maybe this is just to clarify that the missed base is an appeal play, not an automatic call like it was years ago? JMO, but all that I have ever heard is that it is a force out if you miss a base you are forced to advance to and it is properly appealed, and if that is the 3rd out then no runs can score. This also works for a 4th out situation, you can appeal to get a fourth out in an inning if it is a missed base forced to advance to and that act would nullify any runs scored during the play!
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 09:48am
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No runs, in either of these situations.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 10:28am
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Quote:
Originally posted by Bluefoot


Here it is: ON AN APPEAL PLAY, THE FORCE OUT IS DETERMINED WHEN THE APPEAL IS MADE, NOT WHEN THE INFRACTION OCCURRED.

Thanks.
Since this cannot apply to a live-ball appeal, it can only refer to a dead-ball appeal.

This is a saving clause which recognizes the fact that the runners must be permitted to finish their running assignments to touch a base missed, left too soon or awarded bases.

This note directs the umpire to look at a particular point in time during the play to determine whether a force is in effect or not.

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Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 12:56pm
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or how about this? R1 on 1st B2 hits grounder and beats throw to 1st but misses the bag. R1 fell down and defense throws to 2nd for the force out and then back to 1st to appeal the missed bag. If you were to retroactively apply the out to the time of missed bag there would be no force on R1. By applying the force out on BR at the time of the appeal you keep the force out on R1 and get a force out on BR as well.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 01:37pm
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By applying the force out on BR at the time of the appeal you keep the force out on R1 and get a force out on BR as well.

Yes, but I think you're missing the point of the rule. It specifies that whether the out is a force or not is determined by whether it is a force at the time of the appeal. This is different from baseball, in which whether the out is a force or not is determined by whether the runner was forced at the time he missed a base. But in either game, the BR would always be "forced" before reaching 1B safely.

In ASA, once the batter has been put out, there can be no force plays, even on appeals for missing bases. And once a following runner is put out, there can be no force plays on preceding runners (except in rare cases where a runner for whatever reason retreats on the basepaths and reinstates a force play).

The following plays show the difference between ASA and baseball:

1. Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, one out. Charles get a hit down the RF line. Abel scores, Baker misses 2B and goes to 3B. Charles is thrown out at 2B trying for a double. The defense appeals Baker's miss at 2B, and the umpire calls Baker out.

In ASA, because Charles has been put out, the force at 2B is removed on Baker. Baker is out, but since the force was off at the time of the appeal, Abel's run counts. In baseball, because Baker was forced to 2B at the time he missed it, Abel's run would not count.

2. Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, one out. Charles hits a double but misses 1B. Baker misses 2B and goes to 3B. In ASA, to nullify Abel's run, the defense must appeal 2B and then 1B. If they appeal 1B first, the force is removed on Baker's miss of 2B. In baseball, the order of appeals would not matter in this case, since both runners were "forced" at the time they committed their infractions.
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 01:54pm
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YES! Thank you all for helping me see the light!

I love this forum!!!
(all ASA umps should read it, or all computer-literate ones, that is)
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Old Wed Apr 21, 2004, 02:03pm
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Great Job Greymule!
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