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Old Thu Jul 08, 2004, 11:29am
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OBR Rules. 2 out, R1. BR grounds to deep F6. Throw to 1B, (Bang-Bang) BR safe. Then BANG.....

R1 comes flying back to 1B, overruns it into the coaches box, then returns to the bag just as the BR is returning. Now I have 2 runners standing on 1st.

Don't know why R1 did this, but he did.

F3 tags R1 and is called out (by me). But.... not sure if that was the correct call.

Questions:

1) Was BR out automatically when R1 returned to 1B and overran it, thus placing BR ahead of R1. (OBR 7.08 (h))

2) Should F3 have been forced to tag the BR because R1 in entitled to the base. (OBR 7.03)

3) Was the call correct, because force over-rules OBR 7.03 (OBR 7.01)

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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jul 08, 2004, 12:44pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by BayouUmp
OBR Rules. 2 out, R1. BR grounds to deep F6. Throw to 1B, (Bang-Bang) BR safe. Then BANG.....

R1 comes flying back to 1B, overruns it into the coaches box, then returns to the bag just as the BR is returning. Now I have 2 runners standing on 1st.

Don't know why R1 did this, but he did.

F3 tags R1 and is called out (by me). But.... not sure if that was the correct call.

Questions:

1) Was BR out automatically when R1 returned to 1B and overran it, thus placing BR ahead of R1. (OBR 7.08 (h))

2) Should F3 have been forced to tag the BR because R1 in entitled to the base. (OBR 7.03)

3) Was the call correct, because force over-rules OBR 7.03 (OBR 7.01)

1. This may be stretching 7.08h a little. Usually this applies when a following runner passes a proceeding runner, as stated.

2. R1 was NOT entitled to the base because of 7.01. The runner was forced to vacate the base. F3 could have also just thrown to 2nd for the force.

3. The call was correct, but 7.01 discusses the runner aquiring the right to a base and when they lose that right.
7.03 further discusses who is entilted to a base without a FORCE CONDITION. Sit: R2 on 2nd. 1 out. B1 hits single and advances to first and trys for second. He arrives safely however for some unknown reason R2 starts for third and decides to head back to second. Both runners are now on the base. If neither are tagged they are both still safe. If the runner from first is tagged then he is out, because the preceding runner is entitled to the base as per 7.01.

I don't believe that 7.01 overrules 7.03 as much as clarifying another scenario, and what runners are entitled to a base during that scenario.
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Old Thu Jul 08, 2004, 01:33pm
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I teach my kids to tag both runners in the event that two people end up on base. That way they don't need to think about who has the right to the base.
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Old Thu Jul 08, 2004, 04:50pm
Gee Gee is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by akalsey
I teach my kids to tag both runners in the event that two people end up on base. That way they don't need to think about who has the right to the base.
---------------------------------------------------------

That will work with two outs but with less than two outs you should teach them to tag them in the proper order. It does get complicated. G.
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Old Thu Jul 08, 2004, 08:08pm
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Exclamation Safe or out?

Only one player is ever entitled to the base.

I've had coaches try to argue the "order of tag" crap before. Determine which guy has gained the saftey of the bag and when the other yutz is tagged, it doesn't matter in which order, he's out. A runner that has safely gained the right to a base, cannot be forced off by another player that has made a mistake. I was once told to penalize the stupid and the cheaters; that is who I'm looking for.
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Old Thu Jul 08, 2004, 08:35pm
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----I've had coaches try to argue the "order of tag" crap before. Determine which guy has gained the saftey of the bag and when the other yutz is tagged, it doesn't matter in which order, he's out.----

Please tell me you don't believe this! The "order of tag" crap means a lot.

Bases loaded, no one out. Fly ball to LF, but R3 takes off on contact. F7 drops the ball, but R3 does not realize this and comes back to 3B. R2 knows he was forced, so he has run to 3B. R1, with his head down and not paying attention to his coaches or his teammates, rounds 2B and comes into 3B. No runner has passed another, but all three are standing on 3B. The ball comes to a very confused F5. F5, being a good baseball player, starts tagging runners. Who is out?

Is it absurd? Of course it is! But it is a good "test" question that proves that the "order of tag crap" does make a difference.
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Old Thu Jul 08, 2004, 11:24pm
DG DG is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by BayouUmp
OBR Rules. 2 out, R1. BR grounds to deep F6. Throw to 1B, (Bang-Bang) BR safe. Then BANG.....

R1 comes flying back to 1B, overruns it into the coaches box, then returns to the bag just as the BR is returning. Now I have 2 runners standing on 1st.

Don't know why R1 did this, but he did.

F3 tags R1 and is called out (by me). But.... not sure if that was the correct call.

Questions:

1) Was BR out automatically when R1 returned to 1B and overran it, thus placing BR ahead of R1. (OBR 7.08 (h))

2) Should F3 have been forced to tag the BR because R1 in entitled to the base. (OBR 7.03)

3) Was the call correct, because force over-rules OBR 7.03 (OBR 7.01)

IMO, BR is out for passing R1, when R1 overruns 1B and goes into batters box. He is essentially between 1B and home, and BR is beyond 1B.
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Old Fri Jul 09, 2004, 04:32am
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Quote:
Originally posted by DG
Quote:
Originally posted by BayouUmp
OBR Rules. 2 out, R1. BR grounds to deep F6. Throw to 1B, (Bang-Bang) BR safe. Then BANG.....

R1 comes flying back to 1B, overruns it into the coaches box, then returns to the bag just as the BR is returning. Now I have 2 runners standing on 1st.

Don't know why R1 did this, but he did.

F3 tags R1 and is called out (by me). But.... not sure if that was the correct call.
IMO, BR is out for passing R1, when R1 overruns 1B and goes into batters box. He is essentially between 1B and home, and BR is beyond 1B.
Not the batter's box, the coach's box. ;o)

But what of the protection afforded the BR in reaching 1B? And why should the BR be out when it's clearly R1's stupidity that has continued to leave him naked and unprotected in a force situation? You can't blame the BR for this one, you've got to call the dork who's not paying attention out and make sure he sits down and gets ridiculed by his teammates. You can't punish the BR: he has no choice but to get to 1B, and that he did. It doesn't sound like he turned for 2B from the description.

-Craig
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Old Fri Jul 09, 2004, 08:09am
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Quote:
Originally posted by sir_eldren
And why should the BR be out when it's clearly R1's stupidity that has continued to leave him naked and unprotected in a force situation?
Because the rules say the trailing runner is out, no matter which runner made the stupid error.

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Old Fri Jul 09, 2004, 08:10am
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Why are you assuming that the runner moved "past" BR? The coaches box is not necessarily closer to home than 1st - this is likely not a passed runner situation. And if he did round first and head toward home, he's out for that. I can't see an out on BR in any circumstance here.
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Old Fri Jul 09, 2004, 08:13am
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sorry...

Quote:
Originally posted by Atl Blue
----I've had coaches try to argue the "order of tag" crap before. Determine which guy has gained the saftey of the bag and when the other yutz is tagged, it doesn't matter in which order, he's out.----

Please tell me you don't believe this! The "order of tag" crap means a lot.

Bases loaded, no one out. Fly ball to LF, but R3 takes off on contact. F7 drops the ball, but R3 does not realize this and comes back to 3B. R2 knows he was forced, so he has run to 3B. R1, with his head down and not paying attention to his coaches or his teammates, rounds 2B and comes into 3B. No runner has passed another, but all three are standing on 3B. The ball comes to a very confused F5. F5, being a good baseball player, starts tagging runners. Who is out?

Is it absurd? Of course it is! But it is a good "test" question that proves that the "order of tag crap" does make a difference.
No, only one player is entitled to the "safe zone of the base". Someone f*d up and that guy is at fault. If you can't determine which player is out, you shouldn't be taking the check. It does not matter who gets tagged first. Only the improper runner is out, unless the other guy steps off the base.
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Old Fri Jul 09, 2004, 08:23am
DG DG is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by mcrowder
Why are you assuming that the runner moved "past" BR? The coaches box is not necessarily closer to home than 1st - this is likely not a passed runner situation. And if he did round first and head toward home, he's out for that. I can't see an out on BR in any circumstance here.
The base is my point of reference. The BR is one the 2B side of it, R1 is on the HP side of it once he crosses it and ends in the coaches box. Therefore, BR passed R1.
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Old Fri Jul 09, 2004, 08:24am
DG DG is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by sir_eldren
Quote:
Originally posted by DG
Quote:
Originally posted by BayouUmp
OBR Rules. 2 out, R1. BR grounds to deep F6. Throw to 1B, (Bang-Bang) BR safe. Then BANG.....

R1 comes flying back to 1B, overruns it into the coaches box, then returns to the bag just as the BR is returning. Now I have 2 runners standing on 1st.

Don't know why R1 did this, but he did.

F3 tags R1 and is called out (by me). But.... not sure if that was the correct call.
IMO, BR is out for passing R1, when R1 overruns 1B and goes into batters box. He is essentially between 1B and home, and BR is beyond 1B.
Yes, coaches box. Glad you knew what I meant.

Not the batter's box, the coach's box. ;o)

But what of the protection afforded the BR in reaching 1B? And why should the BR be out when it's clearly R1's stupidity that has continued to leave him naked and unprotected in a force situation? You can't blame the BR for this one, you've got to call the dork who's not paying attention out and make sure he sits down and gets ridiculed by his teammates. You can't punish the BR: he has no choice but to get to 1B, and that he did. It doesn't sound like he turned for 2B from the description.

-Craig
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Old Fri Jul 09, 2004, 08:40am
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R1 retreats and touches 1B, then proceeds into the coach's box while BR is returning to 1B, presumably along the foul line? Sounds like passing to me. I'd consider BR on 1B and R1 not yet to 1B. Or R1 closer to 2B in the basepath than BR.

The runner who errs is irrelevant to the out. Abel on 3B, Baker on 2B, Charles on 1B, 0 out, Daniels hits ball over fence. Abel runs in reverse, causing Baker, Charles, and Daniels to "pass" him. Baker, Charles, and Daniels are out.
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Old Fri Jul 09, 2004, 09:46am
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Wink wrong

Quote:
Originally posted by greymule
R1 retreats and touches 1B, then proceeds into the coach's box while BR is returning to 1B, presumably along the foul line? Sounds like passing to me. I'd consider BR on 1B and R1 not yet to 1B. Or R1 closer to 2B in the basepath than BR.

The runner who errs is irrelevant to the out. Abel on 3B, Baker on 2B, Charles on 1B, 0 out, Daniels hits ball over fence. Abel runs in reverse, causing Baker, Charles, and Daniels to "pass" him. Baker, Charles, and Daniels are out.
Abel is out and ejected for making a travesty of the game.
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