Rule question

[Mark Padgett]

Originally Posted by CMHCoachNRef

That is largely because about 99.95% of captains (and, likely, 100% of their coaches) have no idea the rule is there....

Fixed it for ya'.

Originally Posted by just another ref

Why would you? How would you? Based on what rule?

Ah, I see now johnny d was joking. My fault.

Rant: Being new and reading a lot of the old threads to glean information, I realize that the communication on this board is rather unclear. A big part of our job as officials is to clearly and effectively communicate. Sarcasm and jokes are funny, but as we all know, text has an acute inability to communicate tone and inference. I suggest that we all try to be more clear in our writing, which I think would solve some of the communication problems I have noticed. Thoughts?

[APG]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Ah, I see now johnny d was joking. My fault.

Rant: Being new and reading a lot of the old threads to glean information, I realize that the communication on this board is rather unclear. A big part of our job as officials is to clearly and effectively communicate. Sarcasm and jokes are funny, but as we all know, text has an acute inability to communicate tone and inference. I suggest that we all try to be more clear in our writing, which I think would solve some of the communication problems I have noticed. Thoughts?

Pretty sure the use of the emoticion was a clear giveaway that he wasn't being serious but nonetheless...when you have posters who have interacted with each other for close to 10+ years, there tends to be a certain ebb and flow...which includes inside jokes, humor, sarcasm, and sometimes brevity which if you're on the boards long enough, you tend to pick up on. Sometimes that means things won't be spelled out explicitly every single time which may make things unclear for a new official or someone who doesn't frequent the boards.

My suggestion, if you have a question, ask it. Especially, as a new official, that should give those answering your question the proper mindset in answering your question (including being more explicit).

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Ah, I see now johnny d was joking. My fault.

Rant: Being new and reading a lot of the old threads to glean information, I realize that the communication on this board is rather unclear. A big part of our job as officials is to clearly and effectively communicate. Sarcasm and jokes are funny, but as we all know, text has an acute inability to communicate tone and inference. I suggest that we all try to be more clear in our writing, which I think would solve some of the communication problems I have noticed. Thoughts?

Ha!. Good one. For a moment, I thought you were being serious, but then I caught your tone.

Originally Posted by APG

My suggestion, if you have a question, ask it. Especially, as a new official, that should give those answering your question the proper mindset in answering your question (including being more explicit).

Sounds good, thanks!

[Rich]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Ha!. Good one. For a moment, I thought you were being serious, but then I caught your tone.

Right. It wasn't in blue font.

Since this thread started with my question, I'll ask a few more.

Regarding 3-seconds in the lane. Is there anything that causes a 3-second count to restart, similarly to how a closely guarded count is terminated? If player A1 goes into the paint for a shot, misses, and keeps putting up the rebound (and missing) for the next four seconds, what happens? Do I call the 3 seconds or is the count terminated upon a shot attempt?

As the trail, does it matter which arm I use for the 10-second count? I typically use the inside arm, but I watched a few varsity games on tv this week and all the officials used the outside arm.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Since this thread started with my question, I'll ask a few more.

Regarding 3-seconds in the lane. Is there anything that causes a 3-second count to restart, similarly to how a closely guarded count is terminated? If player A1 goes into the paint for a shot, misses, and keeps putting up the rebound (and missing) for the next four seconds, what happens? Do I call the 3 seconds or is the count terminated upon a shot attempt?

As the trail, does it matter which arm I use for the 10-second count? I typically use the inside arm, but I watched a few varsity games on tv this week and all the officials used the outside arm.

1) What are the requirements for a 3-second call (see 9-xxx -- sorry no books here)? (asked in the spirit of getting you in the book). Are they all met during a shot? As a practical matter, have a more patient whistle during an interrupted dribble , "loose ball" (as an undefined term).

2) Doesn't really matter (unless in your area it does). Some say outside, some say table side. Some say whichever you didn't use to count the previous 5-seconds for inbouonding (if applicable).

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

1) What are the requirements for a 3-second call (see 9-xxx -- sorry no books here)? (asked in the spirit of getting you in the book).

Thanks for that! So you know I now understand the rule, the requirements for a three seconds call is team control in the frontcourt. I made a call earlier this season where team A had a frontcourt baseline throw-in, and the coach was mad I called 3 seconds even though the ball was only inside the court for 2 seconds. Do you think I should have a patient whistle on inbounds plays such as these?

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Thanks for that! So you know I now understand the rule, the requirements for a three seconds call is team control in the frontcourt. I made a call earlier this season where team A had a frontcourt baseline throw-in, and the coach was mad I called 3 seconds even though the ball was only inside the court for 2 seconds. Do you think I should have a patient whistle on inbounds plays such as these?

This is not a question of a patient whistle. It is a question of knowing when the count starts.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Thanks for that! So you know I now understand the rule, the requirements for a three seconds call is team control in the frontcourt. I made a call earlier this season where team A had a frontcourt baseline throw-in, and the coach was mad I called 3 seconds even though the ball was only inside the court for 2 seconds. Do you think I should have a patient whistle on inbounds plays such as these?

You need to know the rule better. The count doesn't begin during a throw-in. While team control exists on a throw-in, that's not the same as team control in the frontcourt, which is what the rule (9-7-1) requires.

Here's a bit of advice from a guy who's been around a while -- don't make the 3-second violation your best call.

Don't avoid it when it needs to be called, but if you're calling them more than once or twice a week you should probably think about the spirit and intent of the rule.

Originally Posted by just another ref

This is not a question of a patient whistle. It is a question of knowing when the count starts.

Right, but as bob jenkins suggested, perhaps give some leeway during an interrupted dribble? I can see team A having a frontcourt baseline throw-in, player A1 being in the lane for two seconds before the ball is passed inbounds, and then remaining for one second after the ball is inbounds. In such a case I could call three seconds, but unless there is an advantage gained, should I? What if player A1 hits three seconds in the lane but is headed out?

[Eastshire]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Right, but as bob jenkins suggested, perhaps give some leeway during an interrupted dribble? I can see team A having a frontcourt baseline throw-in, player A1 being in the lane for two seconds before the ball is passed inbounds, and then remaining for one second after the ball is inbounds. In such a case I could call three seconds, but unless there is an advantage gained, should I? What if player A1 hits three seconds in the lane but is headed out?

Is there team control in the frontcourt during an end line throw-in?

[Rich]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Right, but as bob jenkins suggested, perhaps give some leeway during an interrupted dribble? I can see team A having a frontcourt baseline throw-in, player A1 being in the lane for two seconds before the ball is passed inbounds, and then remaining for one second after the ball is inbounds. In such a case I could call three seconds, but unless there is an advantage gained, should I? What if player A1 hits three seconds in the lane but is headed out?

Team control in the frontcourt is different than team control during a throw-in.

The count, by rule, doesn't start until the ball is inbounds and there is team control in the frontcourt. Out of bounds for a throw-in does not equal frontcourt.

No good official is looking to nail teams on three second violations. It's time to stop looking to do so, IMO.

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

In such a case I could call three seconds,

You could call it, but you'd be incorrect, by rule (and by practicality).

The rule requires (a) TC (b) in the FC.

You have (a) during a throw-in, but not (b). The inbounds spot is OOB; it's neither in the FC nor in the BC.