Rule question

Originally Posted by Rich

You need to know the rule better. The count doesn't begin during a throw-in. While team control exists on a throw-in, that's not the same as team control in the frontcourt, which is what the rule (9-7-1) requires.

Are you saying the baseline (and out of bounds area?) under a team's basket is not part of their frontcourt? I read the rule in the book just now but am still confused.

Originally Posted by Rich

Here's a bit of advice from a guy who's been around a while -- don't make the 3-second violation your best call.

I promise I won't!

[Rich]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Are you saying the baseline (and out of bounds area?) under a team's basket is not part of their frontcourt? I read the rule in the book just now but am still confused.

That's exactly right. The frontcourt is the area inbounds between (and not including) the endline and the division line. Out of bounds is neither frontcourt or backcourt.

[APG]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Are you saying the baseline (and out of bounds area?) under a team's basket is not part of their frontcourt? I read the rule in the book just now but am still confused.



I promise I won't!

This is from the last year's basketball interpretations:

SITUATION 2: A1 has the ball for an end-line throw-in in his/her frontcourt. The administering official reaches a four-second count when A1 passes the ball to A2, who had been standing in the free-throw lane since A1 had the ball at his/her disposal. RULING: Legal. Even though a team is now in control during a throw-in, the three-second rule specifically requires that a team be in control in its frontcourt for a violation to occur. Technically speaking, the thrower-in is out of bounds and not located in the frontcourt. (4-35-2; 9-7)

Ok, got another one. I am the trail. Team A has gathered a defensive rebound and is in their backcourt. Player A1 is dribbling the ball towards the division line, while team B is pressing. Player A1 passes the ball from his backcourt location to A2, who was located in the frontcourt, but is jumping and lands in the backcourt. A2, in mid-jump, taps the ball back to A2. Due to A2's previous location being in the frontcourt, I call an over and back violation. Is this correct? Does it matter if the pass-back is a tap or with two hand?

[#olderthanilook]

Originally Posted by just another ref

If you request it, you're a captain.

Ooooh, I like that!

[APG]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Ok, got another one. I am the trail. Team A has gathered a defensive rebound and is in their backcourt. Player A1 is dribbling the ball towards the division line, while team B is pressing. Player A1 passes the ball from his backcourt location to A2, who was located in the frontcourt, but is jumping and lands in the backcourt. A2, in mid-jump, taps the ball back to A2. Due to A2's previous location being in the frontcourt, I call an over and back violation. Is this correct? Does it matter if the pass-back is a tap or with two hand?

Casebook play 9.9.1 Situation C

[Adam]

Originally Posted by APG

Casebook play 9.9.1 Situation C

Which runs counter to the wording, but is consistent with the old wording.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Regarding 3-seconds in the lane. Is there anything that causes a 3-second count to restart, similarly to how a closely guarded count is terminated? If player A1 goes into the paint for a shot, misses, and keeps putting up the rebound (and missing) for the next four seconds, what happens? Do I call the 3 seconds or is the count terminated upon a shot attempt?

The intent of the three-second rule is to not allow an offensive player in the lane to gain an advantage. There is no three-second count between the release of a shot and the control of a rebound, at which time a new count starts. There is no three-second count during a throwin. There is no three-second count while the ball is in the backcourt. There is a three-second count during an interrupted dribble. There is a three-second count while an offensive player has one foot in the lane and one foot outside of the lane, and the three-second count continues if this player lifts the foot in the lane so that neither foot is touching inside the lane. To stop the count this player must have both feet touch the court outside of the lane. It’s a violation for a player to step out of bounds in an attempt to avoid a three second violation. Allowance shall be made for a player who, having been in the restricted area for less than three seconds, dribbles in or moves immediately to try for goal.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by #olderthanilook

What if there isn't a defensive team captain on the floor to request the "match game" moment?

Better yet? What if there isn't a "speaking captain" on the floor, just a regular, run of the mill, ordinary, garden variety, captain?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by BillyMac

Better yet? What if there isn't a "speaking captain" on the floor, just a regular, run of the mill, ordinary, garden variety, captain?

Whoever speaks to me during the game is the captain.

[CMHCoachNRef]

Originally Posted by johnny d

even if they knew the rule, i doubt it would be requested much.....how hard can it be to figure out who you are guarding?

It is not requested largely because coaches have no idea the rule exists (thanks, Mark ). I can tell you that back when I coached, we virtually always played man-to-man defense in the half court. Most of the teams we played would play a zone defense (until we got ahead with no shot clock). If the other team ran in three subs, I would occasionally ask for a line-up through my players. MOST of the REFEREES did not know the rule, either!!!

In our Varsity Boys game last Saturday night, one of the coaches called a time out specifically because his players managed to have two defenders on one of the wings and NO ONE guarding the point guard leading to an easy basket. In that situation, the team only subbed two players therefore the defense would not have been able to make the request, but it is still a rule.

[jTheUmp]

Originally Posted by seanwestref

Ok, got another one. I am the trail. Team A has gathered a defensive rebound and is in their backcourt. Player A1 is dribbling the ball towards the division line, while team B is pressing. Player A1 passes the ball from his backcourt location to A2, who was located in the frontcourt, but is jumping and lands in the backcourt. A2, in mid-jump, taps the ball back to A2. Due to A2's previous location being in the frontcourt, I call an over and back violation. Is this correct? Does it matter if the pass-back is a tap or with two hand?

APG posted the appropriate case play.

"But jTheUmp", you say "that case play deals with a non-airborne player, and my situation deals with an airborne player."

The fact that the player was airborne doesn't make any difference. Airborne players retain the status (inbounds, OOB, front court, backcourt) that they had prior to going airborne. Or, as has been more eloquently stated here previously:
"You are where you were until you get where you're going"

tl;dr: You got the call correct, it does not matter if the pass (or tap) is with one hand or two.

Originally Posted by jTheUmp

tl;dr: You got the call correct, it does not matter if the pass (or tap) is with one hand or two.

Thanks!

Another question: I having been working solely two-man, but have an upcoming three-man game. What advice would you give me so my first time goes smoothly?

[bainsey]

Originally Posted by Indianaref

I have yet to have a captain request this.

Likewise, though in nearly every MSG game I've worked, the beginning of every quarter is a defensive match-up. I never deny it.

[ODog]

How has this thread reached three pages without anyone calling B.S. on Seanwestref's questions?

I know and respect the spirit of treating everyone with an open mind, but ...

There is absolutely NO WAY he is an official who has ever sat through any sort of class or passed any sort of test. NO. WAY.

I'm not saying he doesn't do games at some level somewhere, but suddenly 3-whistle games? Please.