Evaluation of camp observer

[deecee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I also agree with Dan on this. I would not say anything to the tournament director about any clinician unless I was approached personally. Even then I would be very guarded. You are at a camp to learn, not to tell on the clinicians. Now if you are asked in a survey about the camp and it is anonymous then that might be OK. The bottom line is the tournament director hired the people for a reason. If you are at a camp to learn and people are making decisions about you based on the camp, I would stay away from that kind of interaction. Even if you do not like it I feel it would not be right to complain. Work your games, listen to the clinician and move on.

Peace

why are we so scared to voice our negative opinions to "higher ups" -- but anonymously its ok. george carlin said it best that the US is just "pu__ifying itself" -- if you really are "concerned" that this guy will look at you negatively because you expressed what you thought was an innapropriate action then do you really maybe want to work for this guy?

dont answer that because i know from personal experience that most officials will take whatever work they can get and move up and hate the situation and who they work for but kiss a$$ like none other. Instead to b!tching behind their back bring your concerns to them. What they do is out of your control but I know I will sleep better even if I am not working games for said person because he cannot seperate business from personal.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by deecee

why are we so scared to voice our negative opinions to "higher ups" -- but anonymously its ok. george carlin said it best that the US is just "pu__ifying itself" -- if you really are "concerned" that this guy will look at you negatively because you expressed what you thought was an innapropriate action then do you really maybe want to work for this guy?

When you go to a job interview do you criticize the person running your interview about their outfit or bad breathe? Of course you do not. If you are at a camp I am going to assume that most of us are there to have people that have influence over our careers and what games we may or may not work.

Originally Posted by deecee

dont answer that because i know from personal experience that most officials will take whatever work they can get and move up and hate the situation and who they work for but kiss a$$ like none other. Instead to b!tching behind their back bring your concerns to them. What they do is out of your control but I know I will sleep better even if I am not working games for said person because he cannot seperate business from personal.

Camps are job interviews. Even if you are trying to learn, the camp directors use these as ways to hire people and to see who can do the job as you move up the ranks. If you are always b!t@ching about something, someone is going to make a judgment about you that you might not like. Also most people paid money to go to any camp and put in their time they could have used elsewhere. So if you do not care about the consequences then say whatever you feel. But I sure am not going to give them ammo to take away an opportunity. It is not about losing sleep at all. If you do not want to get anything out of the camp, stay at home. It is your money and your time.

Peace

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I also agree with Dan on this. I would not say anything to the tournament director about any clinician unless I was approached personally. Even then I would be very guarded. You are at a camp to learn, not to tell on the clinicians. Now if you are asked in a survey about the camp and it is anonymous then that might be OK. The bottom line is the tournament director hired the people for a reason. If you are at a camp to learn and people are making decisions about you based on the camp, I would stay away from that kind of interaction. Even if you do not like it I feel it would not be right to complain. Work your games, listen to the clinician and move on.

Peace

Jeff, I can see that you might be right for certain situations, as I think I said. It's gonna depend a lot on who the camp director is, and who the clinician is that you have trouble with, and other variables. For me, abuse is the best way to shut down my learning abilities. So if the camp is being run by my association, or by someone who's working to help the officiating in our area bet better, I'm gonna "tell". It's not just to tattle, but to make the camp better. I'm paying good money, or giving good time, and I'm not gaining anything.

I would word it pretty carefully, even so. It would probably be in the form of a "camp evaluation" after camp, and perhaps make it anonymous if I thought it would hurt me politically. The only way I'd go whining right after the incident is if I knew that there was some reason the director would want to know, or if the director specifically asked at some point.

But of course, there could be many situations where this would simply not be appropriate, and furthermore wouldn't be efficacious. I expect that would be most of the time

Regardless of whether I tattled or not, I'd definitely vote with my feet, but not attending that camp again if I couldnt be sure I wouldn't have that eval agian.

[OHBBREF]

Originally Posted by deecee

why are we so scared to voice our negative opinions to "higher ups" -- but anonymously its ok.

Two things you do not do at a camp -
1) is be the "Sure But" guy.
Say to the observer sure but this is the wayI do it.

2) Argue with the observer on the floor.
You will get conflicting information from observers on different
floors take what works for you and use it. Do what that observer
wants you to do on his floor. especially if you are trying to move up
or make an impression to get a contract. Its politics but arguing
with them sure will not work to your advantage. talk to them during
down time about what ever the issue is there will be something you
can learn from it.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Jeff, I can see that you might be right for certain situations, as I think I said. It's gonna depend a lot on who the camp director is, and who the clinician is that you have trouble with, and other variables. For me, abuse is the best way to shut down my learning abilities. So if the camp is being run by my association, or by someone who's working to help the officiating in our area bet better, I'm gonna "tell". It's not just to tattle, but to make the camp better. I'm paying good money, or giving good time, and I'm not gaining anything.

Understand that we are giving opinions here. I am not telling you what to do or what not to do. This is ultimately up to you and each situation. I am just telling you what is likely to be the perception if you do not word your complaint carefully. And unless I knew the tournament director for 20 plus years and went on vacations with them, I would likely pass. I understand that if things do not go your way in a camp that in many aspects of life it is beneficial to say something, but there are times when silence is best if you do not want to alienate yourself from future consideration.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I would word it pretty carefully, even so. It would probably be in the form of a "camp evaluation" after camp, and perhaps make it anonymous if I thought it would hurt me politically. The only way I'd go whining right after the incident is if I knew that there was some reason the director would want to know, or if the director specifically asked at some point.

You can word it anyway you like, that does not mean you will not still come off the wrong way or the way you do not want to be perceived. You know how easily things that take place here can be get turned around and misinterpreted.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

But of course, there could be many situations where this would simply not be appropriate, and furthermore wouldn't be efficacious. I expect that would be most of the time

Regardless of whether I tattled or not, I'd definitely vote with my feet, but not attending that camp again if I couldnt be sure I wouldn't have that eval agian.

Once again I am giving my opinion. Just like anything in life there are people that can take it or leave it. I have attended multiple camps almost every year I have worked basketball and have attended high level D1 camps to the very poorly run camp for HS basketball. I cannot think of a single camp where someone is not watching and deciding things about you. You might not even be aware of this taking place. Just understand you are taking a chance and do not be completely surprised if this does not go over well. Even if you are completely right, you can be completely wrong. Just understand you are taking a risk no matter how you slice it.

Peace

[deecee]

i am not saying argue on the floor -- there is defintley a time and place.

i am stating that i would want any objections, if i were a camp director, to be brought to me regarding my camp. its like any job, changes are made when objections are brought to attention. usually, it is rare, that 1 person will only offend or step out of line with 1 other person. there is usually several

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by deecee

i am not saying argue on the floor -- there is defintley a time and place.

i am stating that i would want any objections, if i were a camp director, to be brought to me regarding my camp. its like any job, changes are made when objections are brought to attention. usually, it is rare, that 1 person will only offend or step out of line with 1 other person. there is usually several

Well you are not a camp director and you have not picked the people to run the camp (from what I am reading in your responses). Also I am sure the camp director and the clinicians he or she picked they have a lot of trust in. And they really have that trust in those people if this is a higher level camp. A higher level camp has people that have proven themselves in ways you will never fully understand. For all you know the camp director might have told them to intervene in a situation like described. All I am saying to you it is risky. Now if you do not care then go right ahead and complain. Just do not be completely surprised when someone thinks your attitude was not right and they will not hire you or recommend you for another situation because of your words to the TD. If you are not hired it is not likely anyone is going to tell you the truth.

Peace

[LarryS]

Maybe I am a fool...but aren't many of these camps a business. If I owned a business and an employee (clinician/evaluator) was hissing off my customers (campers) to the point that they were going to vote with their feet and wallets (not give me thier future business) I would want to know. I was taught early on that a happy customer may tell 10 people about their experience...if you are lucky. An unhappy customer will tell everyone they see.

As was mentioned above, it is highly unlikely that someone only angered one person...they are probably a repeat offender. Besides, why would I want to work for someone who makes it a practice to hire bu## heads and discriminate against those that complain and are offended by said BH?

I might have a different perspective if I was trying to work my way to the NBA...but I have a real job that supports my family comfortably. Even if I get the chance to work college some day it will still only be a hobby. If it is more than that to you...you probably should bite your tongue and take the abuse from unprofessional clinicians.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by LarryS

Maybe I am a fool...but aren't many of these camps a business. If I owned a business and an employee (clinician/evaluator) was hissing off my customers (campers) to the point that they were going to vote with their feet and wallets (not give me thier future business) I would want to know. I was taught early on that a happy customer may tell 10 people about their experience...if you are lucky. An unhappy customer will tell everyone they see.

As was mentioned above, it is highly unlikely that someone only angered one person...they are probably a repeat offender. Besides, why would I want to work for someone who makes it a practice to hire bu## heads and discriminate against those that complain and are offended by said BH?

I don't know what you do in real life but if a customer complained to your boss about you would you be surprised if he fired you on the spot? There is such a thing as loyalty to your employees (btw in many of these camp situations the "employees" are unpaid volunteers, but that's another story).

I might have a different perspective if I was trying to work my way to the NBA...but I have a real job that supports my family comfortably. Even if I get the chance to work college some day it will still only be a hobby. If it is more than that to you...you probably should bite your tongue and take the abuse from unprofessional clinicians.

Well, to some of us it is more than a hobby, and that does not mean we have trouble supporting our families even to your lofty standards. Believe it or not you can have passion for and dedication to an avocation even though the little bit of extra money is not what keeps your kids from starving. Hard to believe, eh? Some of us aint in it for the money.

But if you're this thin-skinned around the 'unprofessional' types you certainly shouldn't be putting yourself in the position where you're exposed to passionate and dedicated coaches and players and biting your tongue is sometimes the best course. So it's win-win all around for you and them I guess.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

I don't know what you do in real life but if a customer complained to your boss about you would you be surprised if he fired you on the spot? There is such a thing as loyalty to your employees (btw in many of these camp situations the "employees" are unpaid volunteers, but that's another story).

Not only is there loyalty to their employees, there is also a huge myth that "The customer is always right." Depending on the field customers are not accommodated when customer’s requests are reasonable. I have been a manager over a corporate store and I can tell you it was quite often that we would dismiss the needs or wants of a customer. Also a camp is not a corporate endeavor. Officials go to camps to get a chance at a bigger opportunity. If you do not like a clinician, there will be someone waiting in the wings to take your spot. Keep that in mind.

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

Well, to some of us it is more than a hobby, and that does not mean we have trouble supporting our families even to your lofty standards. Believe it or not you can have passion for and dedication to an avocation even though the little bit of extra money is not what keeps your kids from starving. Hard to believe, eh? Some of us aint in it for the money.

But if you're this thin-skinned around the 'unprofessional' types you certainly shouldn't be putting yourself in the position where you're exposed to passionate and dedicated coaches and players and biting your tongue is sometimes the best course. So it's win-win all around for you and them I guess.

Well unless most of us do not take the money, we do it for the money. The money might not be the thing that helps us to live our day to day lives, but even if the money pays for our gas, we are doing it for some reason associated with money. I also get your point; I just have not found anyone that just gives the money away to someone other than their family when they get the money for working games.

Peace

[deecee]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Not only is there loyalty to their employees, there is also a huge myth that "The customer is always right." Depending on the field customers are not accommodated when customer’s requests are reasonable. I have been a manager over a corporate store and I can tell you it was quite often that we would dismiss the needs or wants of a customer. Also a camp is not a corporate endeavor. Officials go to camps to get a chance at a bigger opportunity. If you do not like a clinician, there will be someone waiting in the wings to take your spot. Keep that in mind.



Well unless most of us do not take the money, we do it for the money. The money might not be the thing that helps us to live our day to day lives, but even if the money pays for our gas, we are doing it for some reason associated with money. I also get your point; I just have not found anyone that just gives the money away to someone other than their family when they get the money for working games.

Peace

sigh i always forget all comments here are taken in a vacuum.

who mentioned firing the guy? at least you bring it to the directors attention--he chooses whether to act on it -- lets say you are the only one he might not do anything except mention is passing or if there are 2 or 3 others who complain as well he might want to have a talk with said person.

however one thing i failed to remember was that officiating and moving up is more political than business probably 90% politcial if not 100%. i see many decisions made because someone doesnt want to offend or hurt the other persons feelings or because of their relationship rather than making a decision that would maximize efficiency and output.

so in that i should have thought this out and said _ who gives a frack as the "business" of officiating is in its bubble. I act professionally on a court and I expect all other officials and those involved in our process and game to act accordingly. coaches/players get T'd up when they dont and fellow officials, even the bosses, will be confronted when needed. So far I have only had 1 experience with a location and its admin and I do not work games for them or at that location. It was my choice and its one that I am fine with. and this was an easy $40 for about an hour of work 5 minutes away from where I live. I value my experience in any situation more than the monetary gain or loss associated with said experience. I will work a very competitive tourney for half the normal rate because the games will be much more enjoyable to me. After all part of being an official is having the best seats in the house.

[LarryS]

Hey Dan Ref...Get off your flippin high horse.

First...I never said I would complain to the people running the camp. I just said that if someone felt that adamantly about something they should not always be expected to sit there and take it. I honestly believe that, under the correct circumstances, your honest opinion can be heard...especially if it is voiced in an survey at the end of camp.

Second...No, I would not expect my boss to "fire me on the spot" if someone complained. I have worked in the past in positions where I interacted with the customer and ran customer service departments. Angry customers complain...I hope you understand that basic fact. One complaint...nothing...a few complaints...I take notice, especially if they relate to the same individual. Lots of complaints...now I have an issue to address.

Third...I have been ripped at a camp in front of others...it was however a local camp. The evaluator, who didn't know any of us or our experience, dressed us each down for missing rotations and being out of position. It was my second time as part of a 3-official crew...for one of my partners it was his 4th...the seasoned vet in the crew had a whopping 8 games under his belt. I stood there a took it...but discounted everything he said during our session. He worked a lot of D1...but he was an arse hole and had trouble relating to the campers (or so I was told by two others who "checked up" on us after he was finished). Why was he there...so the camp could advertise they had officials from X conference working as evaluators.

Fourth...Great, you have passion for officiating. I do as well, though obviously not at your level. I am happy for you. I assume you want to advance as far as possible. I wish you success and hope you attain your goal..and I am not being sarcastic. For someone like you, the advice to keep quiet is probably best.

Just because someone has reached the highest level and is trusted by others does not mean he is a great teacher. Some very intelligent people can't teach. Some very talented people cannot communicate well. That does not mean they are not very good at what they do. It simply means they suck at teaching.

I plan on going to bigger and better camps next year where the odds of encountering "passionate and dedicated coaches and players" are good (need to completly recover from the fractured vertibrae suffered in my car accident). If they want to rip me publically they can...won't impact my "officiating career" in the least as I will not be attending with the hope of getting hired...just the hope of getting better.

That probably upsets and disappionts you...

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by LarryS

Hey Dan Ref...Get off your flippin high horse...

snipped a lot of words....

I don't own a horse Larry, but if I did I'm sure neither of us would disappointed by anything you did, do, or plan on doing.

Thanks for caring though.

Gotta go find a squirrel, but you go ahead and have yourself a good life.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

I don't own a horse Larry,

Then why are you always hearing "and the horse you rode in on...."?

Just wondering, is all.....

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Then why are you always hearing "and the horse you rode in on...."?

Just wondering, is all.....

That's why I got rid of the damn thing.