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  #16 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 20, 2020, 11:28am
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Regardless of whether you agree with or not, you are being charged for their time and their service. After all you should go to camps with the idea you are going to learn something. If your only goal is to only get hired, you are doing it wrong. Also the better camps that cost the most money, often have several people on their staff or retired officials that have a lot of knowledge, they are sitting all day to watch you work a game to give you some information. And they are asked to tell the assignor who they should consider.

If we don't like the camp system, what is the solution? If you want people hired simply off of recommendations and not seeing them work or only watch someone on film (which everyone cannot get for their games), then we would complain who is getting hired.

Peace
Nowhere did I say eliminate camps, Jeff. I called out the double-dipping profiteering by coordinators which apparently league commissioners are oblivious to, or just don't care about. Have camp all you want, but charging more than what's needed to cover your expenses is unethical when you are already getting paid by the conference, plain and simple.

I don't anticipate it ever changing. After all, this is a capitalistic society. But the college camp circuit is a racket, and everyone knows it.

And I hate to break it to you, but the majority of tryout camps are the exact same year-after-year. Just because you pay $600 to go to a consortium camp does not mean you are learning anymore there than you would if you paid $200 to go to a camp hosted by an NBA official. So the notion that "the better camps cost the most money" is kind of ridiculous. Those camps are not wildly expensive because of their outstanding instruction.
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  #17 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 20, 2020, 12:06pm
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Nowhere did I say eliminate camps, Jeff. I called out the double-dipping profiteering by coordinators which apparently league commissioners are oblivious to, or just don't care about. Have camp all you want, but charging more than what's needed to cover your expenses is unethical when you are already getting paid by the conference, plain and simple.
But when people say to change the camp system, they often say to eliminate or change the camps. So that is why I asked what is the solution? Are we are to be happy with that change?

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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
I don't anticipate it ever changing. After all, this is a capitalistic society. But the college camp circuit is a racket, and everyone knows it.
There are people that might be upset about how much they pay for a specific camp, but that might be based the camp they are attending.

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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
And I hate to break it to you, but the majority of tryout camps are the exact same year-after-year. Just because you pay $600 to go to a consortium camp does not mean you are learning anymore there than you would if you paid $200 to go to a camp hosted by an NBA official. So the notion that "the better camps cost the most money" is kind of ridiculous. Those camps are not wildly expensive because of their outstanding instruction.
I have been to both. Usually, the $200 camp has fewer games and fewer payoffs if hired. Usually, that is the cost for those that work lower-level conferences (NAIA or Division 3) where you might make that back in one game check. You get hired at the $600 camp, the check for those games has a comma associated with them. It is a choice that you have to make. You are an independent contractor. If I go to a sales seminar or some training for self-improvement, I might pay more to attend and that will include the same expenses. I might pay a lot more than $600 to register as well. This is a business, this is not an obligation for you to attend. That is certainly not the cost for local high school camps that I am associated with that might be anywhere from $25 to $60 as an average if you need to get high school credit and officials in my area complain about that!!!! And you had no overnight stays, no multiple days and even if you are working with the right camp, they might get you some money to work additional games so you get some of your camp fee back.

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  #18 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 20, 2020, 01:28pm
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The college camp system is in definite need of an overhaul. Supervisors are double dipping, and most times you are not getting instruction commensurate to the amount of money you pay. Additionally, quite often no matter how good you are, you're not getting hired the first time around. Some supervisors say that it's a function of "getting to know you better", but just as often it's a function of getting more money from that official before hiring them.

What's really appalling are camps that charge $500 to $600 yet provide no housing or meals.



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Last edited by Raymond; Wed May 20, 2020 at 01:31pm.
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  #19 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 20, 2020, 04:11pm
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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
The college camp system is in definite need of an overhaul. Supervisors are double dipping, and most times you are not getting instruction commensurate to the amount of money you pay. Additionally, quite often no matter how good you are, you're not getting hired the first time around. Some supervisors say that it's a function of "getting to know you better", but just as often it's a function of getting more money from that official before hiring them.

What's really appalling are camps that charge $500 to $600 yet provide no housing or meals.
This really is about the level of camp you are attending. Because an NAIA or D3 camp is not the same as a major conference consortium camp. Those have a much smaller margin for error. Also if you attend those games, you can get hired the first time, but you probably have to be already working D1. I have a friend that got hired going the first time, but he was already working at the D1 level. And he had some people speaking on his behalf too which helped.

I got hired in two leagues I work the first time I attended camp too, but that was lower-level college and I was recommended to go to the camps. Also in both those camps, almost all the clinicians were the same so I was seen 3 times by the same people in for these two supervisors. Any little thing helps. Oh, neither of those camps I referenced were over $300. The supervisors are D1 officials and my location change probably helped too.

I do not know how I get hired in either without going to camp. This also might be a part of the country thing too. Out West, there is an assignor that runs no camps, because he was told not to. The Midwest where I live, the B1G has taken over several leagues and took on a couple of D3 leagues under their umbrella. So an official that works D3 can go to the B1G camp and already have access to those that make the decision for the consortium hires. I have no idea what happens on the East Coast or the South. The SEC has a new supervisor so we will see if he changes some things.

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  #20 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2020, 08:58am
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
I understand assigners, especially at the college level, wanting to personally see an official before hiring. But they should not be charging more for camp than to cover their costs, or the conference should cover those costs. I just can't believe conference commissioners have sat back and allowed the current racket to happen when they are already paying assigners for exactly the same thing assigners charge prospective officials and arm and a leg for. Common sense would say they are getting ripped off.
Send them some game film. I only hire for 24 HS at the varsity level, but I use film all the time. You can tell who can ref in a short period of time.

The camp system exists for the $$. The venue pays the camp, the officials pay the camp, and the camp organizers (who are already paid supervisors) get rich.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2020, 10:23am
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Out West, there is an assignor that runs no camps, because he was told not to.
The only D1 assignor "out west" has an invite only camp conducted in the Spring for the past 3-years in Phoenix, Az. The only cost to campers was transportation and hotel accommodations. It was was canceled this year due to the pandemic and not rescheduled.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2020, 12:08pm
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Originally Posted by dahoopref View Post
The only D1 assignor "out west" has an invite only camp conducted in the Spring for the past 3-years in Phoenix, Az. The only cost to campers was transportation and hotel accommodations. It was was canceled this year due to the pandemic and not rescheduled.
And how do you get on the invite list?

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  #23 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2020, 01:04pm
LRZ LRZ is offline
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"Out West, there is an assignor that runs no camps, because he was told not to."

I'm not being sarcastic; I'm really just curious: is there an interesting or relevant story behind this?
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  #24 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2020, 01:28pm
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Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
"Out West, there is an assignor that runs no camps, because he was told not to."

I'm not being sarcastic; I'm really just curious: is there an interesting or relevant story behind this?
To my understanding the conference did not want them to hold camps. But the problem is that you have to be invited to some events to even be considered. So while everyone seems to not like the camp system, that really limits who is considered.

At least a camp you can apply on some level for the job. That is why I asked what is the better solution? It is like bitching about sportsmanship and we have no solution to how to solve the issue. Because if you desire to be considered, how do you get considered without camps? And does that apply to lower-level leagues the same way? How does a guy in Ohio that has a league spread out over 5 states know that a person on th border of one of the states and is closer to the school a school he assigns than most of the staff, how does he know that person exists? Not everyone is going to sit and watch your high school game film. And how are they going to get access to the film in the first place without a national registry of games available somewhere online?

I am not in love with the overall camp season either, but trying to figure out what is the solution?

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  #25 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2020, 02:38pm
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Originally Posted by LRZ View Post
"Out West, there is an assignor that runs no camps, because he was told not to."



I'm not being sarcastic; I'm really just curious: is there an interesting or relevant story behind this?
Kind of spitballing here but I think the roots might go back to when Ed Rush was the supervisor of the Pac-12. Most NBA guys hate the college camp system (Joe Forte being a notable exception, but at least his camps were cheaper than most).

Ed Rush was going to revamp the whole hiring system for the Pac-12, and from what I heard he rubbed a lot of veterans the wrong way with some of his ideas. I'm thinking that after dealing with Ed Rush, even though he's gone now, the powers-that-be realize that the traditional college camp system is not the proper way to hire officials.

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  #26 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2020, 02:44pm
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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
(Joe Forte being a notable exception, but at least his camps were cheaper than most).
I don't even recall his camp being that cheap for the leagues he had (of course he only has one D2 league now so maybe he's come down).
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  #27 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2020, 04:11pm
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
I don't even recall his camp being that cheap for the leagues he had (of course he only has one D2 league now so maybe he's come down).
I went to one of his camps the year I got hired in my first two D3 conferences (2008). The camp was only $200.

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  #28 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2020, 04:14pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
And how do you get on the invite list?

Peace
Submit a resume to a member of the rating/evaluation consortium staff. They conduct a background check of your resume from your listed college assignors and stated post-season assignments; there have been applicants who were denied because they "exaggerated" their resume. If it all passed, they made a list of the camp invitees for approval from BD.
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  #29 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 21, 2020, 07:48pm
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Originally Posted by dahoopref View Post
Submit a resume to a member of the rating/evaluation consortium staff. They conduct a background check of your resume from your listed college assignors and stated post-season assignments; there have been applicants who were denied because they "exaggerated" their resume. If it all passed, they made a list of the camp invitees for approval from BD.
Ok, but how does that tell me how you communicate with a coach? How does that tell me that you understand basic mechanics and movements? How many of these invite sessions are run? Do the conferences invest in those to staff those events? Or does the conference hire the assignor to choose who would make the staff?

Sometimes the official might have a "resume'" but cannot referee. That is the rub. Because I love that people complain about the camp system and say how it is an "ole boy system." But are we going to be OK if only certain people get invited and no way to determine who can work other than a pure recommendation? Because even if I apply, then it will be based on who gave the recommendation, not that one was given.

We do also realize that major conferences do not often invest money into their officiating program for hiring? Now I know the B1G says they invest around 12 million a year on officiating fees and training programs a year and part of that is camps. Not sure what they make if anything off of those camps or put the money back into their program. That I do not remember, I cannot speak for what the other BCS Conferences do. I just have a little knowledge of what B1G does because I am under their program.

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  #30 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 24, 2020, 05:55pm
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So far all of my camps have been cancelled, except for one in Texas which was rescheduled to late June. That ticked me off, because D1 extended the dead period to July, and DII can only recruit on-campus. I'm not so naive to believe that some college coaches won't be there, but I have friends who coach AAU on the East Coast, and they've told me they've cancelled all events for their players until July/August. This is clearly so the assignor can collect a check, and the people hosting the tournament don't have to issue a refund.

I also have another assignor who keeps sending us emails saying that "Our camps will be rescheduled to the late summer/early fall." Sure.

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Staffs are going to be reduced. Also there's talk of rolling back game fees because of financial strains on the colleges and universities.

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I do college soccer, and one of the leagues sent our assignor an email requesting that we hold off on bumping up our pay, and it included the details for all sports in that conference. It totals to an extra $20 a game; not per person, but per game. Basketball was adding an additional $5 per person, and they're asking for that to be suspended. Tough times.
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