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  #46 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 26, 2020, 10:05pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
So you're implying that there isn't any nepotism/politics in basketball? Milk through the nose.



There are multiple 20-somethings in the southeast who are in D1 because of their last names.
The advantages of having family members proceed you in this avocation in the Mid-Atlantic is not a secret and openly acknowledged by the main power broker.

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  #47 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 27, 2020, 11:03am
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I work college soccer, and I agree with Rutledge on what happens if you don't have camps. Now, soccer is starting to transition to camps because soccer can't find enough refs, but at these camps we get paid to work. The thing is soccer pays so well, if you tried to get people to try out for anything other than MLS or the minor professional leagues without any payment, people wouldn't go. We still have siblings and family members who get the call for games they aren't ready for, but I've learned to accept that that is going to happen from sports to business to politics to whatever.

The nepotism: As a guy in my mid-20s, the only thing that irks me is when I meet a guy my age who doesn't realize he is in the G-League or on a D1 staff is because of "Daddy". A guy who's been reffing for 3 years is in the D2 National Tournament? What's his last name? Oh yeah, of course. But when that guy has the gall to start talking to me about "Staying hungry" and "Trusting the system"? Take a long walk on a short pier, buddy. You've no idea what you're talking about.

But I agree with Rutledge's overall question: What's the solution? I hate camps, but what do we switch to? Game-film? I got a buddy who paid $525 to have a D1 Women's supervisor rate his film. Would I do that? Maybe, I don't know.
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  #48 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 27, 2020, 11:46am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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I do think that children of this or relatives can sometimes know things that others do not early in their careers. If you are around something a good portion of your life you can pick up on things that someone not in that are not exposed would know. I can speak for personal experience on this just having a Ph.D. as a parent. Your parents or relatives can give you little nuggets it might take you years to learn on your own. That being all said, I do not like it when you see multiple cases of guys at the top level are there and the only thing that really distinguishes them is their association or name. That is why I am skeptical of when people say they do not like the camp system because I have seen it for years without any camps in other sports. At least with the camp system, I can make a lot of personal choices about what I want to do. Without camps, I have to contact people and hope my name is passed along or recommended. I have gone to camps and gotten hired because I showed what I can do. And there is still a system in place that benefits the children, relatives and very good friends, but at least I can show my worth next to them on some level.

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  #49 (permalink)  
Old Wed May 27, 2020, 09:03pm
Courageous When Prudent
 
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I don't know who's talking about getting rid of camps, at least I know I'm not. I'm talking about getting rid of the exorbitant prices we pay to go to camp, and sometimes to stay on staff

Talked to somebody today who had initially paid $500 to go to a staff camp this spring, but it got postponed For various reasons they have since decided to relocate to another state, which will take them too far away from the conference. The supervisor does not want to give them back their camp fee, for a camp that's still at least two months away. That's the mindset and environment I'm talking about.

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Last edited by Raymond; Thu May 28, 2020 at 06:39am.
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  #50 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 28, 2020, 08:39am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Player989random View Post
The nepotism: As a guy in my mid-20s, the only thing that irks me is when I meet a guy my age who doesn't realize he is in the G-League or on a D1 staff is because of "Daddy". A guy who's been reffing for 3 years is in the D2 National Tournament? What's his last name? Oh yeah, of course. But when that guy has the gall to start talking to me about "Staying hungry" and "Trusting the system"? Take a long walk on a short pier, buddy. You've no idea what you're talking about.
This is the main thing that drives me nuts - the political correctness (for lack of a better term) from the lucky few who have made it to the highest level and want to preach to the commoners. There are many officials who never make it to the highest level and should be there instead of some of the other guys if you just go by ability. And when you point out the politics or the camp racket people say "well, you must not care about getting better." It's as though it's taboo to talk about the flaws.
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  #51 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 28, 2020, 08:40am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I don't know who's talking about getting rid of camps, at least I know I'm not. I'm talking about getting rid of the exorbitant prices we pay to go to camp, and sometimes to stay on staff

... That's the mindset and environment I'm talking about.
I wholeheartedly agree. The "free training camps" we have to do for one of our shared assignors does nothing but pad his pocketbook with our sweat. It ticks me off. With all my free time I'm starting to question why I even pursue this hobby at that level.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
And when you point out the politics or the camp racket people say "well, you must not care about getting better." It's as though it's taboo to talk about the flaws.
This issue exists at all levels as well. I think they all secretly want to replace the assignor and then do the same things that we hate, so they can cash in. Or they don't want to acknowledge that they don't belong there. "**** you, I got mine".

Last edited by Player989random; Thu May 28, 2020 at 08:45am.
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  #52 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 28, 2020, 08:45am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I don't know who's talking about getting rid of camps, at least I know I'm not. I'm talking about getting rid of the exorbitant prices we pay to go to camp, and sometimes to stay on staff

Talked to somebody today who had initially paid $500 to go to a staff camp this spring, but it got postponed For various reasons they have since decided to relocate to another state, which will take them too far away from the conference. The supervisor does not want to give them back their camp fee, for a camp that's still at least two months away. That's the mindset and environment I'm talking about.

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I'm not talking about getting rid of camps, either. But I'm not surprised Rut took it that way and won't back down.

I know a certain low-level supervisor who still is wholly convinced he's having camp in some way, some fashion, before the season. Well, good luck finding basketball tournaments to officiate during football season. I don't think he's given anyone their money back and will likely do anything in his power not to.
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  #53 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 28, 2020, 10:28am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
I'm not talking about getting rid of camps, either. But I'm not surprised Rut took it that way and won't back down.
If you actually read what I said, I was asking for a solution? People that talk complain about the camp system do not explain what is the way to solve the issue. I was asking for solutions and the only other solution that is obvious if you are complaining about something is to either eliminate it or to overhaul the system you are complaining about does not work or is a rachet. Rich says he hires people by using game film. Well if that is the main way you hire prospective officials then you are not using the camp system are you?

Now I can say that just about every high school assignor I work for either runs their own camp or they are apart of some camp that they evaluate or look at propsective officials. Usually those officials are people they have never seen and do not work any lower level games for them during the season. But those that wish to work varsity and have never been seen by an assignor needs to be seen somewhere. Obviously, during the season there are more opportunities to see officials work games as there are plenty of opportunities to watch someone work, but most assignors are active officials and often have to go by what others say or have to be at the right game where they watch fellow officials work. I was also giving a perspective as a multiple sports official that has worked for years in systems where never do you have a camp to get hired. Basketball is the only sport that I can think of where there are multiple opportunities to work games in the off-season and those opportunities can be and have been used as a camp. Not every state has spring football or some off-season opportunity to evaluate talent in a live or semi-live situation. The opportunity we once had in Illinois was taken away with having games no-full contact practices and we never could see teams play each other in that capacity before anyway. Teams could only do that in an intrasquad situation and that was very limited in the first place. Even in baseball and softball, it is very rare to see camps in those settings because it seems that no one wants to run a game based off of training of officials the way we do in basketball. Maybe that should change but that is the way it seems to be now.

All I was asking for was solutions as to how this is changed? Because if the camp directors/organizers and administrators stop taking the pay for the games, how are they paying for all the expenses that would be to run any camp? Right, wrong or indifferent, those events cost money to either staff, hold meetings, or supplement the cost of the camp for materials or other things that campers might get when attending. How do you bring D1 officials from across multiple states and ask them to evaluate officials without compensating them personally in some way? I think that is a fair question and that was all this was about for me. Even a state clinician as I am, I am not coming out all day and spending time watching multiple officials during a day and not getting anything beneficial for my time. And it is standard to pay us something and often we are paid less than $100 over multiple days and even putting together the curriculum with our time outside of family and work so that we fit the standards of the state.

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  #54 (permalink)  
Old Thu May 28, 2020, 10:52am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I don't know who's talking about getting rid of camps, at least I know I'm not. I'm talking about getting rid of the exorbitant prices we pay to go to camp, and sometimes to stay on staff
John Adams before he was the NCAA Men's Supervisor, would run camps for literally $50. Adams at the time assigned a D3 league, D2 league and the Horizon League that is now taken over by the B1G. That was his training ground for his hiring. But the reality is that it was well known that John was a rich man outside of officiating. He would run a couple of these camps to get identify people. But to be fair as much as I loved his camps, they were not about teaching or learning anything. It seemed strictly a way to hire officials. He did not go over mechanics. He did not go over expectations other than he would talk about the "Money of D1 Basketball." He would talk about an hour by why he is not going to hire you, when he could hire Ed Hightower or Steve Welmer because if his teams made the NCAA Tournament, they would make close to 2 million dollars at the time for every game they played. And then he talked about how that money went to the other schools and how the Horizon a couple of times had 2 teams in the NCAA Tournament not just one. He went on to state how a call in the middle of the season could influence a team making the tournament in a mid-major and how that related to who would his coaches like to see more than some young kid that has not "name" or recognition to his officiating at that level. He even went on and on about if you were west of this town you probably were not as good of an official, but he would need you because you were closer to his a school in that location. Where if you were east of that same town, you would likely have seen much better ball but you were in competition for fewer slots based on your location and that he could use multiple officials from that area at that time. His conversations about that were by far the best, but again I did not learn about rotations, dealing with coaches or what he made a decision about when hiring someone.

A lot of the campers ended up being D1 officials. A lot of his clinicians went from being lower level D1 guys or D2 officials to go on to work the B1G or other conferences like the B12 Consortium (which was one of the first ones at the D1 level at the time). It was actually amazing experience, but not a one for vast opportunities if you did not have someone in your corner that knew him well. Now when John went on to work as the NCAA Supervisor, different supervisors took over his leagues, and then in some cases there were more opportunities for those in certain areas after he left. But I will always be thankful to John and the experience, but I was already an experienced official when I attended his stuff.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Talked to somebody today who had initially paid $500 to go to a staff camp this spring, but it got postponed For various reasons they have since decided to relocate to another state, which will take them too far away from the conference. The supervisor does not want to give them back their camp fee, for a camp that's still at least two months away. That's the mindset and environment I'm talking about.
And that is wrong if that is the case and not what I would ever defend. That is not about the camp system that is about that supervisor. Many of my assignors that took our money for camps, either would pay us back or even apply it to next year's camp if they those cannot attend the rescheduled event.

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  #55 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 30, 2020, 04:02pm
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Isn't it simple? Camps are a racket but "solutions" or changes can only be performed by those running the racket. That won't happen so on it goes.

It's like asking Trump to change the bankruptcy laws.
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  #56 (permalink)  
Old Sat May 30, 2020, 06:38pm
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Originally Posted by bucky View Post
Isn't it simple? Camps are a racket but "solutions" or changes can only be performed by those running the racket. That won't happen so on it goes.

It's like asking Trump to change the bankruptcy laws.
Like politics or a bill, what is the solution? Leagues are going to hire people one way or the other. What is the solution? You either have a camp system of some kind or you will have nothing and hope you know the right people. What is your solution?

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  #57 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 01, 2020, 04:44pm
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I definitely have solutions to offer but that is irrelevant. Only those in charge can make the changes. A "camp system" or any other type of "system" is necessary in order to evaluate the abilities of people, whether basketball or....anything else. I would not call the current method, for college basketball officials a "system", rather I would elect to use other words such as "network, club, organization, racket, etc."

Not looking to debate, just giving my two cents.
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  #58 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jun 01, 2020, 06:46pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Originally Posted by bucky View Post
I definitely have solutions to offer but that is irrelevant. Only those in charge can make the changes. A "camp system" or any other type of "system" is necessary in order to evaluate the abilities of people, whether basketball or....anything else. I would not call the current method, for college basketball officials a "system", rather I would elect to use other words such as "network, club, organization, racket, etc."

Not looking to debate, just giving my two cents.
That is fine that you are not looking for a debate, but that was not the point of my question. My position is that no matter what you do, someone is going to hire you based off of some kind of "network, club or organization." So if not by camps, how are you going to get hired?

Now you can call it whatever you like, but the reality and the only thing I am focused on is whatever that is, there will be someone complaining. Either you treat this like a business or you treat it like someone has to give you something for being a true "independent contractor." And no one is putting a gun to any of our heads to pay any amount for a clinic. The majority of us are high school officials at best. In my state, you can go to camps that are either free or around $20 if you have to get some clinic credit depending on your previous membership with an organization. Even the ones that have a court portion can be around $50 (and lower for Part 2 clinic credit). That is less than one game fee for a high school game. If you are really froggy, you can pay as much as $150 for a camp where a D1 official is the headliner and the assignor that runs the camp with him assigns a NAIA league as well as high school. If the assignor of the NAIA league hires you, you can make $185 for one game, and that is more than the cost of the camp.

I'm just saying at some point we have choices to make, even if you call a rachet. Most officials should never go to that higher level of a camp if they have little to no desire to work anything beyond varsity. Now if that is different in other areas that is fine and I am sorry for that, but not the case here. I am just saying you can pay your little $20 and get what you pay for in the long run, basic credit to keep your licensing and no one tells you anything about how you officiate. And you might not even learn the basic of 3 person which is something many officials only learn by working those games. This is like my regular business and investment in yourself or you can just hope you know what you know and wish for the best by doing what you think others do to be successful. That is really all I am saying.

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