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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 24, 2020, 06:06pm
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Originally Posted by Player989random View Post
...



I also have another assignor who keeps sending us emails saying that "Our camps will be rescheduled to the late summer/early fall." Sure.





...
I'm pretty sure we're both receiving that email from the same person.

But since I'm coming off a season where I injured my knee and had surgery and lost about 80-90% of my season, I'm looking forward to opportunities to get on the court....assuming that I want to get on the court in a Covid-19 environment.



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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 24, 2020, 09:05pm
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No surprise that assigners want you to believe they will have camp later this summer. The damage to their pocketbooks should they not get to have camp would be significant.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 24, 2020, 09:07pm
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
Send them some game film. I only hire for 24 HS at the varsity level, but I use film all the time. You can tell who can ref in a short period of time.

The camp system exists for the $$. The venue pays the camp, the officials pay the camp, and the camp organizers (who are already paid supervisors) get rich.
The problem is all game film is not created equal.

I agree with you that the camp system exists for the money, but I do understand that their is legitimate apprehension behind hiring someone unseen. Host a camp all you want, but the double-dipping is unethical.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 24, 2020, 09:09pm
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
The problem is all game film is not created equal.

I agree with you that the camp system exists for the money, but I do understand that their is legitimate apprehension behind hiring someone unseen. Host a camp all you want, but the double-dipping is unethical.
It's triple-dipping. Get a paycheck, get official camp fees, get game fees for the camp games.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 26, 2020, 08:45am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
It's triple-dipping. Get a paycheck, get official camp fees, get game fees for the camp games.
I see nothing wrong with this. I know we do this at lesser camps. And the game fees pay the clinicians that are sitting watching and giving instructions for multiple games. And sometimes those fees are lesser than what an official would be paid for the game or willing to work.

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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 26, 2020, 08:57am
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
I see nothing wrong with this. I know we do this at lesser camps. And the game fees pay the clinicians that are sitting watching and giving instructions for multiple games. And sometimes those fees are lesser than what an official would be paid for the game or willing to work.



Peace
I have a big problem with it. Campers are the one who are performing the work that allows that tournament to happen. Supervisors and camp organizers are making a huge profit off camps, not a little profit. Campers are not getting $400-600 worth of instruction. Many campers get ignored when it comes to feedback and in reality are only there so that that supervisors can hold on to that tournament.

I've also seen camp coordinators who don't divulge that they are no longer supervisors and hold camps without clearly informing campers that they are no longer in charge of a conference.

Maybe it's a regional thing. I know Rick Boyages is a good person and as a college coach at William & Mary he treated officials who worked his scrimmages better than any other coach I've done such work for.

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Last edited by Raymond; Tue May 26, 2020 at 09:00am.
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 26, 2020, 09:10am
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Originally Posted by Rich View Post
It's triple-dipping. Get a paycheck, get official camp fees, get game fees for the camp games.
Again, I have made very clear that I share the belief that the camp circuit has evolved into a scam. You are never going to hear me pretend otherwise.

And don't forget registration fees collected from officials before the season. They will claim they are "covering their expenses," but shouldn't that be the conference's job?
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 26, 2020, 09:13am
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Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I have a big problem with it. Campers are the one who are performing the work that allows that tournament to happen. Supervisors and camp organizers are making a huge profit off camps, not a little profit. Campers are not getting $400-600 worth of instruction. Many campers get ignored when it comes to feedback and in reality are only there so that that supervisors can hold on to that tournament.

I've also seen camp coordinators who don't divulge that they are no longer supervisors and hold camps without clearly informing campers that they are no longer in charge of a conference.

Maybe it's a regional thing. I know Rick Boyages is a good person and as a college coach at William & Mary he treated officials who worked his scrimmages better than any other coach I've done such work for.

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Yep.

I laugh while listening to the preachy arguments in defense of the camp system. It's as though because I don't think I should have to sell my soul to referee college basketball, I clearly "don't care about getting better" and would be better off just quitting altogether.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 26, 2020, 09:23am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I have a big problem with it. Campers are the one who are performing the work that allows that tournament to happen. Supervisors and camp organizers are making a huge profit off camps, not a little profit. Campers are not getting $400-600 worth of instruction. Many campers get ignored when it comes to feedback and in reality are only there so that that supervisors can hold on to that tournament.
Well I think we need to categorize this on many levels. A camp where there are costing hundreds of dollars I do not treat the same as a camp where you do not pay $100 for the camp. And if I am paying for a camp that is $500 to $600 and my hotel is included, I do not personally care what fees the camp gets because you are saving the camper money. Now if you are charging the camper $500 and not paying for any lodging or any food, then that is a different issue. But again I am going to assume the clinicians are being paid something for attending as well, like their lodging or even a fee for sitting there all day to evaluate campers. I do not look at all camps the same in this respect.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
I've also seen camp coordinators who don't divulge that they are no longer supervisors and hold camps without clearly informing campers that they are no longer in charge of a conference.
I had this happen to me. I attended a camp and later that summer the supervisor was fired. But I also worked baseball for that individual in that same conference, so it was kind of a blow and probably the closest I got to getting hired in that conference.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Raymond View Post
Maybe it's a regional thing. I know Rick Boyages is a good person and as a college coach at William & Mary he treated officials who worked his scrimmages better than any other coach I've done such work for.
But the B1G also invest money into their camp system. Not sure how much of that money I referenced is coming totally out of their pocket when they run camps, but I know they give their campers a lot when you attend. The hotel I stayed in last year would have cost me way over the camp fee if I did not have hotel included and its location.

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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 26, 2020, 09:45am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Yep.

I laugh while listening to the preachy arguments in defense of the camp system. It's as though because I don't think I should have to sell my soul to referee college basketball, I clearly "don't care about getting better" and would be better off just quitting altogether.
Then what is the better solution? Because I feel going to camp can make you better. Sitting at home on social media does not make you better alone. So what is the solution so that you feel that officials are evaluated and hired properly? You would have to have some solution if you have a lot to complain about in the "current" system?

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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 26, 2020, 09:55am
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Then what is the better solution? Because I feel going to camp can make you better. Sitting at home on social media does not make you better alone. So what is the solution so that you feel that officials are evaluated and hired properly? You would have to have some solution if you have a lot to complain about in the "current" system?

Peace
Christ. Again, making stuff up as usual. Nowhere did I say that camps can't make you better.

If you actually took the time to read my posts in this thread, you would see that I have not called for getting rid of camps (in fact, quite the opposite). I have called out what the camp circuit has evolved into. You act as though camps and the racket they create are one in the same. It doesn't have to be that way. Coordinators could, God forbid, get their leagues to cover the camp expenses, as one idea. After all, why should I have to pay you (an exorbitant amount, at that) for a job interview? That should be your employer's job to cover those costs.

That is great that you don't feel the camps you attend are scams. Not everyone has to have the same opinion as you - and there are plenty of people who don't.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 26, 2020, 10:15am
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Originally Posted by SC Official View Post
Christ. Again, making stuff up as usual. Nowhere did I say that camps can't make you better.
I was asking for a solution. I did not make anything up. There are benefits to the camp system, but if you do not like how they are run, what is the solution to hire and train officials? Because as a person in an industry, I have to pay for training all the time completely out of pocket for a seminar or presentation. Or my company pays for those opportunities for things that are not cheap. So someone is going to pay for these on some level or we will not have them at all. I just want to hear what the solution is?

If you actually took the time to read my posts in this thread, you would see that I have not called for getting rid of camps (in fact, quite the opposite). I have called out what the camp circuit has evolved into. You act as though camps and the racket they create are one in the same. It doesn't have to be that way. Coordinators could, God forbid, get their leagues to cover the camp expenses, as one idea. After all, why should I have to pay you (an exorbitant amount, at that) for a job interview? That should be your employer's job to cover those costs.[/QUOTE]

I did not say you said anything about getting rid of the camp system. I also feel there needs to be changes as well, but understand why they are what they are compared to other industries. We pride ourselves on being "Independent Contractors" but then act as if we are employees when it comes to training and evaluation. Often you pay for those in other industries when you are not an employee. Because if the league covers the cost of the camps, then you will likely not get fees raised or other things we like as well. Not saying that is right, just stating that it is hard to ask for a raise in fees and then have them pay all the cost of the camps. Or not have us complain when they only take "certain people" as even being interviewed.

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That is great that you don't feel the camps you attend are scams. Not everyone has to have the same opinion as you - and there are plenty of people who don't.
I've paid less for camps than I have for professional improvement or materials in my professional life. So I see the camp system in its current form as very similar, because I do not have to attend anything. And I said that this might be an issue of where you live and who you work for as an official. I kind of have a little idea of what Raymond is referencing as I have talked to him off this site about a situation that I was considering attending. So I have realized some time ago what happens in the Midwest might not be the case in other parts of the country. And since most people are not talking about a specific level I think that is also different from what the B1G does to a local high school conference and who they hire for their games. If you read what I said, I have made big distinctions to what camps we are talking about here.

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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 26, 2020, 10:57am
Do not give a damn!!
 
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Let me add this last part. I work college football at the Division 3 level and have worked it for almost 8 years or so when they changed the system or the assigning process. I work for the B1G Alliance where they used D3 so that they can get all their officials for that work the MAC, Missouri Valley and even the B1G. All the newer D1 officials come from the D3 ranks for the most part within this Alliance. You know how they pick those officials to even be considered for D3? Who you know. Who you are related to. Who likes you and gives you a recommendation. There are not on-field independent camps where you can work to get some experience or be trained. There is a big training meeting before the season that we do not pay for if you are on a crew or you are on the supplemental list, but it is one day and absolutely no on field evaluation whatsoever. So people get invited to that meeting and hardly have a high school varsity schedule in many situations from my area.

Then I used to work D1 baseball for a brief period of time. I got that opportunity only because I had worked with a minor league umpire (at the time) during the basketball season at a high school basketball game in the middle of December. We had a great game together and got along very well. I had a conversation with this person and talked about how I was a baseball umpire and had some baseball experience at the college level. Well, the conversation went so well, Minor League Umpires went on strike later that fall and he passed my name along to the assignor and I got a call on Saturday of Easter Weekend to go to Valparaiso to finish working a two games of that series at the D1 level on Easter Sunday. I was not going to work the plate and I never had to show up to any camp to get that opportunity. That officials is now an MLB full-time umpire and it was by his word alone I even got considered. I worked for about 2 or 3 years in that conference and mostly worked D2 baseball, but never had to prove it beyond working a real game.

I say all of this because that is what happens without camps at all. Then if you have the right last name or your dad/uncle is in the NFL, then someone gives you a shot that you did not earn by talent or training alone. Certainly not anything a supervisor was exposed to. That is why I ask, "What is the solution?"

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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 26, 2020, 08:01pm
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Originally Posted by JRutledge View Post
Let me add this last part. I work college football at the Division 3 level and have worked it for almost 8 years or so when they changed the system or the assigning process. I work for the B1G Alliance where they used D3 so that they can get all their officials for that work the MAC, Missouri Valley and even the B1G. All the newer D1 officials come from the D3 ranks for the most part within this Alliance. You know how they pick those officials to even be considered for D3? Who you know. Who you are related to. Who likes you and gives you a recommendation. There are not on-field independent camps where you can work to get some experience or be trained. There is a big training meeting before the season that we do not pay for if you are on a crew or you are on the supplemental list, but it is one day and absolutely no on field evaluation whatsoever. So people get invited to that meeting and hardly have a high school varsity schedule in many situations from my area.

Then I used to work D1 baseball for a brief period of time. I got that opportunity only because I had worked with a minor league umpire (at the time) during the basketball season at a high school basketball game in the middle of December. We had a great game together and got along very well. I had a conversation with this person and talked about how I was a baseball umpire and had some baseball experience at the college level. Well, the conversation went so well, Minor League Umpires went on strike later that fall and he passed my name along to the assignor and I got a call on Saturday of Easter Weekend to go to Valparaiso to finish working a two games of that series at the D1 level on Easter Sunday. I was not going to work the plate and I never had to show up to any camp to get that opportunity. That officials is now an MLB full-time umpire and it was by his word alone I even got considered. I worked for about 2 or 3 years in that conference and mostly worked D2 baseball, but never had to prove it beyond working a real game.

I say all of this because that is what happens without camps at all. Then if you have the right last name or your dad/uncle is in the NFL, then someone gives you a shot that you did not earn by talent or training alone. Certainly not anything a supervisor was exposed to. That is why I ask, "What is the solution?"

Peace
So you're implying that there isn't any nepotism/politics in basketball? Milk through the nose.

There are multiple 20-somethings in the southeast who are in D1 because of their last names.
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  #45 (permalink)  
Old Tue May 26, 2020, 08:42pm
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So you're implying that there isn't any nepotism/politics in basketball? Milk through the nose.

There are multiple 20-somethings in the southeast who are in D1 because of their last names.
That is actually not what I said. I said that there is even more when you have nothing else to go on but your name and the powers that be picking people based on nothing but what they are told about a prospect. If you get rid of the camp system or how it is now, you might be more like sports that do not do camps as a way to evaluate new talent. Of course that could work on some level to get rid of the things you do not like, but it creates other bigger issues that officials like to complain about. At least in the current system I am making some kind of choice.

There obviously is some nepotism in basketball. But there are so many spots that there are folks that can overcome some of this in basketball. If I cannot even get access to the people that assign the football conferences by no well-used process, then you have more people getting into place without any proving of their ability.

Peace
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Last edited by JRutledge; Tue May 26, 2020 at 08:44pm.
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