Camps this Offseason

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Camps are not necessary for hiring. Recommendations to a supervisor or that person or his designee observing the official elsewhere can suffice. Camps are simply a way for supervisors to make money and if it could be demonstrated that they are essentially a kickback to the person doing the hiring, then the system would be illegal under federal law.

I understand assigners, especially at the college level, wanting to personally see an official before hiring. But they should not be charging more for camp than to cover their costs, or the conference should cover those costs. I just can't believe conference commissioners have sat back and allowed the current racket to happen when they are already paying assigners for exactly the same thing assigners charge prospective officials and arm and a leg for. Common sense would say they are getting ripped off.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

I understand assigners, especially at the college level, wanting to personally see an official before hiring. But they should not be charging more for camp than to cover their costs, or the conference should cover those costs. I just can't believe conference commissioners have sat back and allowed the current racket to happen when they are already paying assigners for exactly the same thing assigners charge prospective officials and arm and a leg for. Common sense would say they are getting ripped off.

Regardless of whether you agree with or not, you are being charged for their time and their service. After all you should go to camps with the idea you are going to learn something. If your only goal is to only get hired, you are doing it wrong. Also the better camps that cost the most money, often have several people on their staff or retired officials that have a lot of knowledge, they are sitting all day to watch you work a game to give you some information. And they are asked to tell the assignor who they should consider.

If we don't like the camp system, what is the solution? If you want people hired simply off of recommendations and not seeing them work or only watch someone on film (which everyone cannot get for their games), then we would complain who is getting hired.

Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

Regardless of whether you agree with or not, you are being charged for their time and their service. After all you should go to camps with the idea you are going to learn something. If your only goal is to only get hired, you are doing it wrong. Also the better camps that cost the most money, often have several people on their staff or retired officials that have a lot of knowledge, they are sitting all day to watch you work a game to give you some information. And they are asked to tell the assignor who they should consider.

If we don't like the camp system, what is the solution? If you want people hired simply off of recommendations and not seeing them work or only watch someone on film (which everyone cannot get for their games), then we would complain who is getting hired.

Peace

Nowhere did I say eliminate camps, Jeff. I called out the double-dipping profiteering by coordinators which apparently league commissioners are oblivious to, or just don't care about. Have camp all you want, but charging more than what's needed to cover your expenses is unethical when you are already getting paid by the conference, plain and simple.

I don't anticipate it ever changing. After all, this is a capitalistic society. But the college camp circuit is a racket, and everyone knows it.

And I hate to break it to you, but the majority of tryout camps are the exact same year-after-year. Just because you pay $600 to go to a consortium camp does not mean you are learning anymore there than you would if you paid $200 to go to a camp hosted by an NBA official. So the notion that "the better camps cost the most money" is kind of ridiculous. Those camps are not wildly expensive because of their outstanding instruction.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by SC Official

Nowhere did I say eliminate camps, Jeff. I called out the double-dipping profiteering by coordinators which apparently league commissioners are oblivious to, or just don't care about. Have camp all you want, but charging more than what's needed to cover your expenses is unethical when you are already getting paid by the conference, plain and simple.

But when people say to change the camp system, they often say to eliminate or change the camps. So that is why I asked what is the solution? Are we are to be happy with that change?

Originally Posted by SC Official

I don't anticipate it ever changing. After all, this is a capitalistic society. But the college camp circuit is a racket, and everyone knows it.

There are people that might be upset about how much they pay for a specific camp, but that might be based the camp they are attending.

Originally Posted by SC Official

And I hate to break it to you, but the majority of tryout camps are the exact same year-after-year. Just because you pay $600 to go to a consortium camp does not mean you are learning anymore there than you would if you paid $200 to go to a camp hosted by an NBA official. So the notion that "the better camps cost the most money" is kind of ridiculous. Those camps are not wildly expensive because of their outstanding instruction.

I have been to both. Usually, the $200 camp has fewer games and fewer payoffs if hired. Usually, that is the cost for those that work lower-level conferences (NAIA or Division 3) where you might make that back in one game check. You get hired at the $600 camp, the check for those games has a comma associated with them. It is a choice that you have to make. You are an independent contractor. If I go to a sales seminar or some training for self-improvement, I might pay more to attend and that will include the same expenses. I might pay a lot more than $600 to register as well. This is a business, this is not an obligation for you to attend. That is certainly not the cost for local high school camps that I am associated with that might be anywhere from $25 to $60 as an average if you need to get high school credit and officials in my area complain about that!!!! And you had no overnight stays, no multiple days and even if you are working with the right camp, they might get you some money to work additional games so you get some of your camp fee back.

Peace

[Rich]

Originally Posted by SC Official

I understand assigners, especially at the college level, wanting to personally see an official before hiring. But they should not be charging more for camp than to cover their costs, or the conference should cover those costs. I just can't believe conference commissioners have sat back and allowed the current racket to happen when they are already paying assigners for exactly the same thing assigners charge prospective officials and arm and a leg for. Common sense would say they are getting ripped off.

Send them some game film. I only hire for 24 HS at the varsity level, but I use film all the time. You can tell who can ref in a short period of time.

The camp system exists for the $$. The venue pays the camp, the officials pay the camp, and the camp organizers (who are already paid supervisors) get rich.

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Rich

Send them some game film. I only hire for 24 HS at the varsity level, but I use film all the time. You can tell who can ref in a short period of time.

The camp system exists for the $$. The venue pays the camp, the officials pay the camp, and the camp organizers (who are already paid supervisors) get rich.

The problem is all game film is not created equal.

I agree with you that the camp system exists for the money, but I do understand that their is legitimate apprehension behind hiring someone unseen. Host a camp all you want, but the double-dipping is unethical.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by SC Official

The problem is all game film is not created equal.

I agree with you that the camp system exists for the money, but I do understand that their is legitimate apprehension behind hiring someone unseen. Host a camp all you want, but the double-dipping is unethical.

It's triple-dipping. Get a paycheck, get official camp fees, get game fees for the camp games.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Rich

It's triple-dipping. Get a paycheck, get official camp fees, get game fees for the camp games.

I see nothing wrong with this. I know we do this at lesser camps. And the game fees pay the clinicians that are sitting watching and giving instructions for multiple games. And sometimes those fees are lesser than what an official would be paid for the game or willing to work.

Peace

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

I see nothing wrong with this. I know we do this at lesser camps. And the game fees pay the clinicians that are sitting watching and giving instructions for multiple games. And sometimes those fees are lesser than what an official would be paid for the game or willing to work.



Peace

I have a big problem with it. Campers are the one who are performing the work that allows that tournament to happen. Supervisors and camp organizers are making a huge profit off camps, not a little profit. Campers are not getting $400-600 worth of instruction. Many campers get ignored when it comes to feedback and in reality are only there so that that supervisors can hold on to that tournament.

I've also seen camp coordinators who don't divulge that they are no longer supervisors and hold camps without clearly informing campers that they are no longer in charge of a conference.

Maybe it's a regional thing. I know Rick Boyages is a good person and as a college coach at William & Mary he treated officials who worked his scrimmages better than any other coach I've done such work for.

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[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I have a big problem with it. Campers are the one who are performing the work that allows that tournament to happen. Supervisors and camp organizers are making a huge profit off camps, not a little profit. Campers are not getting $400-600 worth of instruction. Many campers get ignored when it comes to feedback and in reality are only there so that that supervisors can hold on to that tournament.

I've also seen camp coordinators who don't divulge that they are no longer supervisors and hold camps without clearly informing campers that they are no longer in charge of a conference.

Maybe it's a regional thing. I know Rick Boyages is a good person and as a college coach at William & Mary he treated officials who worked his scrimmages better than any other coach I've done such work for.

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Yep.

I laugh while listening to the preachy arguments in defense of the camp system. It's as though because I don't think I should have to sell my soul to referee college basketball, I clearly "don't care about getting better" and would be better off just quitting altogether.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by Raymond

I have a big problem with it. Campers are the one who are performing the work that allows that tournament to happen. Supervisors and camp organizers are making a huge profit off camps, not a little profit. Campers are not getting $400-600 worth of instruction. Many campers get ignored when it comes to feedback and in reality are only there so that that supervisors can hold on to that tournament.

Well I think we need to categorize this on many levels. A camp where there are costing hundreds of dollars I do not treat the same as a camp where you do not pay $100 for the camp. And if I am paying for a camp that is $500 to $600 and my hotel is included, I do not personally care what fees the camp gets because you are saving the camper money. Now if you are charging the camper $500 and not paying for any lodging or any food, then that is a different issue. But again I am going to assume the clinicians are being paid something for attending as well, like their lodging or even a fee for sitting there all day to evaluate campers. I do not look at all camps the same in this respect.

Originally Posted by Raymond

I've also seen camp coordinators who don't divulge that they are no longer supervisors and hold camps without clearly informing campers that they are no longer in charge of a conference.

I had this happen to me. I attended a camp and later that summer the supervisor was fired. But I also worked baseball for that individual in that same conference, so it was kind of a blow and probably the closest I got to getting hired in that conference.

Originally Posted by Raymond

Maybe it's a regional thing. I know Rick Boyages is a good person and as a college coach at William & Mary he treated officials who worked his scrimmages better than any other coach I've done such work for.

But the B1G also invest money into their camp system. Not sure how much of that money I referenced is coming totally out of their pocket when they run camps, but I know they give their campers a lot when you attend. The hotel I stayed in last year would have cost me way over the camp fee if I did not have hotel included and its location.

Peace

[SC Official]

Originally Posted by Rich

It's triple-dipping. Get a paycheck, get official camp fees, get game fees for the camp games.

Again, I have made very clear that I share the belief that the camp circuit has evolved into a scam. You are never going to hear me pretend otherwise.

And don't forget registration fees collected from officials before the season. They will claim they are "covering their expenses," but shouldn't that be the conference's job?