Runner assisted by coach

[IRISHMAFIA]

Remember, you are discussing FP and SP JO, Masters & Seniors only.

[IRISHMAFIA]

For those who have the ASA Casebook/disc, (2007), you may want to check play 8.8-20(b) and a comment concerning when "dead ball" assistence can occur.

Base on that information, the BR is ruled out for assistence, all other runners score.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

For those who have the ASA Casebook/disc, (2007), you may want to check play 8.8-20(b) and a comment concerning when "dead ball" assistence can occur.

Base on that information, the BR is ruled out for assistence, all other runners score.

I don't have the 2007 Casebook. Could someone perhaps clarify?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

For those who have the ASA Casebook/disc, (2007), you may want to check play 8.8-20(b) and a comment concerning when "dead ball" assistence can occur.

Base on that information, the BR is ruled out for assistence, all other runners score.

I reviewed that case play, and as I read it, the coach's assistance happened before the ball became dead. Here is the case play:

PLAY 8.8-20
With no outs and R1 on 3B, B2 hits a towering fly ball to left field. R1 is about ten feet down the line toward home and not returning to 3B to tag up. While the ball is still in flight, the coach at 3B assists by pushing R1 back to 3B. The ball (a) was dropped by F7, or (b) the ball goes over the left field fence in the air.
RULING: In both cases R1 is ruled out on runner assistance. In (a) the ball remains live. In (b) the ball becomes dead and B2 is awarded a home run. (8-7E)

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I reviewed that case play, and as I read it, the coach's assistance happened before the ball became dead. Here is the case play:

If that's the case play, then I don't see how it would apply to this situation. In case b, the ball was still live and in play, even though it was heading out of play.

Even if the ball is CLEARLY "on its way" to go out of play, it's still live. For all we know, a huge gust of wind could blow it back.

[snorman75]

Guys, I think we can say a home run ball is NOT a dead ball.

Lets look at 8.5.H-M. 8.5.H is our home run, it does not say the ball is dead. 8.5-I-M cover all other balls going out of play. The #1 thing they say in the effect is the ball is dead. Side note 8.6.I does not cover a home run since it only covers balls that "bounces over, rolls under or through (anything)" it does not come into effect here.

My question is why do we assume a home run is a dead ball? Trust me I think it is a interesting paradox. Since how can it be a live ball? But I think you can read it as a home run being a live ball and call the BR out for the coach assisting her.

There is another way to call the BR out
Call her out and go about your day. The winnings team's protest is "meaningless" 9.7.B

I have a question for everyone, If you see this happen tomorrow what do you call?

Any one ask ASA for a interpretation? I think it is a good one to ask for.

[Dholloway1962]

Dead Ball is a ball that is not in play. After the ball passes the top of the fence and contacts ground/building/wall or other object the ball becomes dead. The area outside the fences is Dead Ball Area. Once that ball gets there you have a dead ball.

Ok Snorman, I pose this question again. If the HR is not a dead ball, why is the runner or batter-runner not called out if they remove their helmet.

It is not an out. Nothing in the Rule Book supports an out call. If it happened today I would call nothing. If there is a protest I will win because I can show why it isn't an out. No other person can show why it is an out. If they can show me where in the book it constitutes an out I will jump on board. Just isn't there.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Ok Snorman, I pose this question again. If the HR is not a dead ball, why is the runner or batter-runner not called out if they remove their helmet.

Because the rule specifically instructs the umpire to use discretion in enforcing this rule taking into consideration it's purpose even during a live ball. If a ball is in left field and a runner removes her helmet crossing the plate, I'm not ruling the batter out as there was never any danger.

It is not an out. Nothing in the Rule Book supports an out call. If it happened today I would call nothing. If there is a protest I will win because I can show why it isn't an out. No other person can show why it is an out. If they can show me where in the book it constitutes an out I will jump on board. Just isn't there.

Being Devil's Advocate, if the ASA agrees with you, why did they not just make that statement instead of going through all the trouble they did below?

From ASA's web site, Rules Clarifications:

Assisting an injured runner

We have received more than several phone calls and emails about the play that has been on all the TV sports shows around the country. We have been asked two things, is this legal in ASA Softball and in ASA Softball could we have put a substitute in for this injured player that has hit a home run.


First: Our rules for assisting a runner, Rule 8 Section 7E states when any offensive team member other than another runner, physically assists a runner while the ball is live EFFECT The ball is live and the runner being assisted is out. We do not have any rule that would prohibit the defense from assisting a runner.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Because the rule specifically instructs the umpire to use discretion in enforcing this rule taking into consideration it's purpose even during a live ball. If a ball is in left field and a runner removes her helmet crossing the plate, I'm not ruling the batter out as there was never any danger.

Being Devil's Advocate, if the ASA agrees with you, why did they not just make that statement instead of going through all the trouble they did below?

Simple. The play they mentioned got national attention by tugging at the heart strings. The play we're discussing has not (as of yet).

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Because the rule specifically instructs the umpire to use discretion in enforcing this rule taking into consideration it's purpose even during a live ball. If a ball is in left field and a runner removes her helmet crossing the plate, I'm not ruling the batter out as there was never any danger.

Good Point

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Being Devil's Advocate, if the ASA agrees with you, why did they not just make that statement instead of going through all the trouble they did below?

From ASA's web site, Rules Clarifications:

Assisting an injured runner

We have received more than several phone calls and emails about the play that has been on all the TV sports shows around the country. We have been asked two things, is this legal in ASA Softball and in ASA Softball could we have put a substitute in for this injured player that has hit a home run.


First: Our rules for assisting a runner, Rule 8 Section 7E states when any offensive team member other than another runner, physically assists a runner while the ball is live EFFECT The ball is live and the runner being assisted is out. We do not have any rule that would prohibit the defense from assisting a runner.

I agree with you, can't figure out why they try to make such a point of it, but still they leave that "while the ball is live" in there. Take that ball is live out and replace that with "at any time" and it is pretty darn clear cut. That might need to be looked at....call it the Holloway Rule?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

...Being Devil's Advocate, if the ASA agrees with you, why did they not just make that statement instead of going through all the trouble they did below?...

Because the issue with the play in the news was the defense assisting the runner, and no one asked about the offense doing the same since the ball was dead. It was also pointed out that the offense could have used a substitute runner. They can't do that during a live ball.

If what you are implying is true (as I understand what you are saying is the ball is indeed dead since it is in dead ball territory, but by interpretation, 8-7E applies to runners after a home run anyway), why did the case play that you cited above carefully structure the situation so the ball was still live during the assistance?

I think what you are saying is what should be the interpretation; I just can't find anything that says that.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Good Point

I agree with you, can't figure out why they try to make such a point of it, but still they leave that "while the ball is live" in there. Take that ball is live out and replace that with "at any time" and it is pretty darn clear cut. That might need to be looked at....call it the Holloway Rule?

Sounds to me like we are back to the "Steve Rule" cited back in post 12.

[snorman75]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Dead Ball is a ball that is not in play. After the ball passes the top of the fence and contacts ground/building/wall or other object the ball becomes dead. The area outside the fences is Dead Ball Area. Once that ball gets there you have a dead ball.

Ok Snorman, I pose this question again. If the HR is not a dead ball, why is the runner or batter-runner not called out if they remove their helmet.

It is not an out. Nothing in the Rule Book supports an out call. If it happened today I would call nothing. If there is a protest I will win because I can show why it isn't an out. No other person can show why it is an out. If they can show me where in the book it constitutes an out I will jump on board. Just isn't there.

I know. I am just saying it is interesting that all the other sections covering out of play balls, start with "Ball is dead" and the home run rule does not.

If this exact situation happens today, I call her out. Winning team has no grounds to protest a play that wins the game for them.


I any other situation, breaks my heart to say this, but I would have to call her not out.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by snorman75

I know. I am just saying it is interesting that all the other sections covering out of play balls, start with "Ball is dead" and the home run rule does not.

If this exact situation happens today, I call her out. Winning team has no grounds to protest a play that wins the game for them.


I any other situation, breaks my heart to say this, but I would have to call her not out.

While it makes no difference in this sitch, there are plenty of other sitches where calling an out would get you in trouble. It's a timing play, and if the home team is down by two with two outs, I guarantee you're getting a protest.

[snorman75]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

While it makes no difference in this sitch, there are plenty of other sitches where calling an out would get you in trouble. It's a timing play, and if the home team is down by two with two outs, I guarantee you're getting a protest.

Yep, So in ANY other situation, I do not call her out, and I am SURE we are going to have a protest.