Runner assisted by coach

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

... with two outs, the BR (who has passed, but missed first base) is out fore the third out, but the runs still score in ASA. This is another case where the ASA ruling on fourth out appeals disadvantages the defense, as the defense cannot appeal the missed base by the BR who did not score (when called out after passing the base).

I think you are confusing an appeal for the third out with an appeal for an advantageous fourth out. The runs can be nullified in ASA with an appeal of the BR missing 1B for the 3rd out.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I think you are confusing an appeal for the third out with an appeal for an advantageous fourth out. The runs can be nullified in ASA with an appeal of the BR missing 1B for the 3rd out.

But, Tom, that appeal would be for the fourth out. We are required to declare the out for assistance when it occurs (that is not an appeal, it is our call to make), and that (if it is with two outs) precedes the opportunity to appeal (which could not be made until all runners had completed their running responsibilities).

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Here's a situation that was discussed this past weekend during umpire down time.

Bottom of the 7th. Home down by 1 run. No outs. R1 at 3B. R2 at 2B. Batter hits an over-the-fence home run. BR jubilant, jumping, hopping, etc., toward 1B and jumps over 1B (doesn't touch) and continues toward 2B. R1 has crossed home. 1B coach grabs BR and pulls her back to touch 1B.

Call? How many runs score?

ASA Rules.

Didn't I see this happen to Mark McGuire?

FP or SP?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Didn't I see this happen to Mark McGuire?

FP or SP?

Ha! Maybe..

Anyway, FP, but answer for both...

[umpharp]

Since BR never reached 1st base before being called out due to interference....I have no runs scoring.

[DeputyUICHousto]

Dead ball no interference.

I think about the helmet rule where on an over the fence home run the batter/runner can remove the helmet with no penalty. Why would it be different in this case.

[snorman75]

OK, I do not have a rule book in front of me, but I will read up latter.

Of the top of my head. Using the MLB rules, the same type of thing happened in the Mets playoff run a few years back. Game winning home run, with less then 2 outs and batter's run not mattering. They mobbed the runner before he made it to second. He was giving a single and called out.

Off the top of my head I can not see allowing the batter to score, and not calling her out.

Keep rules coming things, so it saves me some time, LOL.

[IRISHMAFIA]

For those who have the ASA Casebook/disc, (2007), you may want to check play 8.8-20(b) and a comment concerning when "dead ball" assistence can occur.

Base on that information, the BR is ruled out for assistence, all other runners score.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

For those who have the ASA Casebook/disc, (2007), you may want to check play 8.8-20(b) and a comment concerning when "dead ball" assistence can occur.

Base on that information, the BR is ruled out for assistence, all other runners score.

I don't have the 2007 Casebook. Could someone perhaps clarify?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

For those who have the ASA Casebook/disc, (2007), you may want to check play 8.8-20(b) and a comment concerning when "dead ball" assistence can occur.

Base on that information, the BR is ruled out for assistence, all other runners score.

I reviewed that case play, and as I read it, the coach's assistance happened before the ball became dead. Here is the case play:

PLAY 8.8-20
With no outs and R1 on 3B, B2 hits a towering fly ball to left field. R1 is about ten feet down the line toward home and not returning to 3B to tag up. While the ball is still in flight, the coach at 3B assists by pushing R1 back to 3B. The ball (a) was dropped by F7, or (b) the ball goes over the left field fence in the air.
RULING: In both cases R1 is ruled out on runner assistance. In (a) the ball remains live. In (b) the ball becomes dead and B2 is awarded a home run. (8-7E)

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I reviewed that case play, and as I read it, the coach's assistance happened before the ball became dead. Here is the case play:

If that's the case play, then I don't see how it would apply to this situation. In case b, the ball was still live and in play, even though it was heading out of play.

Even if the ball is CLEARLY "on its way" to go out of play, it's still live. For all we know, a huge gust of wind could blow it back.

[snorman75]

Guys, I think we can say a home run ball is NOT a dead ball.

Lets look at 8.5.H-M. 8.5.H is our home run, it does not say the ball is dead. 8.5-I-M cover all other balls going out of play. The #1 thing they say in the effect is the ball is dead. Side note 8.6.I does not cover a home run since it only covers balls that "bounces over, rolls under or through (anything)" it does not come into effect here.

My question is why do we assume a home run is a dead ball? Trust me I think it is a interesting paradox. Since how can it be a live ball? But I think you can read it as a home run being a live ball and call the BR out for the coach assisting her.

There is another way to call the BR out
Call her out and go about your day. The winnings team's protest is "meaningless" 9.7.B

I have a question for everyone, If you see this happen tomorrow what do you call?

Any one ask ASA for a interpretation? I think it is a good one to ask for.

[Dholloway1962]

Dead Ball is a ball that is not in play. After the ball passes the top of the fence and contacts ground/building/wall or other object the ball becomes dead. The area outside the fences is Dead Ball Area. Once that ball gets there you have a dead ball.

Ok Snorman, I pose this question again. If the HR is not a dead ball, why is the runner or batter-runner not called out if they remove their helmet.

It is not an out. Nothing in the Rule Book supports an out call. If it happened today I would call nothing. If there is a protest I will win because I can show why it isn't an out. No other person can show why it is an out. If they can show me where in the book it constitutes an out I will jump on board. Just isn't there.

[ronald]

Well, there are a number of rulings with which I disagree in principal, but they're there. Let's say I eject R1 for USC as she's coming home (for example, she yells "go f*** yourselves! We win!" to the other team). I have a problem with letting her score - I feel she should be out and ejected. Unfortunately, I'd have nothing backing me up to make this call other than principles (provided they have a sub available). But hey, dem's da breaks.
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In 2002 casebook there is a play where a batter hits a high fly thinks it is an out and angrliy throws bat against fence. Ruling is USC and no homerun but an out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by ronald

Well, there are a number of rulings with which I disagree in principal, but they're there. Let's say I eject R1 for USC as she's coming home (for example, she yells "go f*** yourselves! We win!" to the other team). I have a problem with letting her score - I feel she should be out and ejected. Unfortunately, I'd have nothing backing me up to make this call other than principles (provided they have a sub available). But hey, dem's da breaks.
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In 2002 casebook there is a play where a batter hits a high fly thinks it is an out and angrliy throws bat against fence. Ruling is USC and no homerun but an out.

That was six years ago under a different regime, back when "Henry said" was considered valid documentation for any interpretation or ruling.

I submitted a rule change a few years back that would support the "out" for USC, but it was rejected. Presently, there is nothing to support such a ruling. I wait until the end of the play to eject a player, if necessary.