Runner assisted by coach

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Dakota

I think you are confusing an appeal for the third out with an appeal for an advantageous fourth out. The runs can be nullified in ASA with an appeal of the BR missing 1B for the 3rd out.

But, Tom, that appeal would be for the fourth out. We are required to declare the out for assistance when it occurs (that is not an appeal, it is our call to make), and that (if it is with two outs) precedes the opportunity to appeal (which could not be made until all runners had completed their running responsibilities).

[Dholloway1962]

Dead ball....score them all.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by whiskers_ump

2 since the ball is still live, and only the runner assisted is out.

I'm with you on this one, except for the live ball part.

[Dholloway1962]

Then why isn't the HR hitter out if she intentionally removes her helmet while running the bases? Because it is a dead ball and the rule doesn't apply in a dead ball situation. Same principle applies IMO.
8-7-E. When anyone other than another runner physically assists the runner while the ball is in play.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Then why isn't the HR hitter out if she intentionally removes her helmet while running the bases? Because it is a dead ball and the rule doesn't apply in a dead ball situation. Same principle applies IMO.

That rule is there simply for their safety. In the case of this rule, the runners must run the bases on their own power, assisted only by each other.

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

In the case of this rule, the runners must run the bases on their own power, assisted only by each other.

Where is that written for a dead ball situation?

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

Where is that written for a dead ball situation?

Huh. Apparently, it isn't. Touché.

[Dholloway1962]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Huh. Apparently, it isn't. Touché.

I found a rule for a live ball saying it is an out.

I find nothing in the book that says you have an out during this dead ball situation.

I do believe that you can't have an out during a dead ball situation with some exceptions (tag up, missed base on appeal). I don't see being assisted by a non-runner in that list of exceptions or dead ball appeals. Therefore you don't have an out.

If you don't have an out you have nothing.

End of Story

Not saying that this is morally correct outcome (allowing her to score) but I believe that would have to be the ruling.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Dholloway1962

I found a rule for a live ball saying it is an out.

I find nothing in the book that says you have an out during this dead ball situation.

I do believe that you can't have an out during a dead ball situation with some exceptions (tag up, missed base on appeal). I don't see being assisted by a non-runner in that list of exceptions or dead ball appeals. Therefore you don't have an out.

If you don't have an out you have nothing.

End of Story

Not saying that this is morally correct outcome (allowing her to score) but I believe that would have to be the ruling.

Well, there are a number of rulings with which I disagree in principal, but they're there. Let's say I eject R1 for USC as she's coming home (for example, she yells "go f*** yourselves! We win!" to the other team). I have a problem with letting her score - I feel she should be out and ejected. Unfortunately, I'd have nothing backing me up to make this call other than principles (provided they have a sub available). But hey, dem's da breaks.

[Dakota]

OK, guys, time for some kind of resolution here.

"Common sense" says the BR is out for coach's assistance and that 2 runs score, since the BR could be appealed for the out.

But, the ASA rule on assisting a runner requires that the ball be live, so by the black-letter of the rule, there is no rule against a coach assisting a runner on an over the fence home run.

If I change the OP scenario slightly to have 2 outs before the play, then the answer matters A LOT!

So, which is it?

[DeputyUICHousto]

Dead ball no interference.

I think about the helmet rule where on an over the fence home run the batter/runner can remove the helmet with no penalty. Why would it be different in this case.

[snorman75]

OK, I do not have a rule book in front of me, but I will read up latter.

Of the top of my head. Using the MLB rules, the same type of thing happened in the Mets playoff run a few years back. Game winning home run, with less then 2 outs and batter's run not mattering. They mobbed the runner before he made it to second. He was giving a single and called out.

Off the top of my head I can not see allowing the batter to score, and not calling her out.

Keep rules coming things, so it saves me some time, LOL.

[NCASAUmp]

Originally Posted by Dakota

OK, guys, time for some kind of resolution here.

"Common sense" says the BR is out for coach's assistance and that 2 runs score, since the BR could be appealed for the out.

But, the ASA rule on assisting a runner requires that the ball be live, so by the black-letter of the rule, there is no rule against a coach assisting a runner on an over the fence home run.

If I change the OP scenario slightly to have 2 outs before the play, then the answer matters A LOT!

So, which is it?

Dholloway1962 already gave us the answer in black and white. While I disagree with the rule, that IS the rule. Ball must be live for us to call a runner out for being physically assisted by anyone other than another offensive runner. So the second sitch brought up (going from no outs to 2 outs) has the same call because it's the same rule. We can't call the BR out for this, period.

At least, not until the rule changes.

[snorman75]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Dholloway1962 already gave us the answer in black and white. While I disagree with the rule, that IS the rule. Ball must be live for us to call a runner out for being physically assisted by anyone other than another offensive runner. So the second sitch brought up (going from no outs to 2 outs) has the same call because it's the same rule. We can't call the BR out for this, period.

At least, not until the rule changes.

You know we all are going to be reading our books for 2-3 hours hoping to find something allowing us to call her out.

I wish us luck, but I would not count in it.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally Posted by NCASAUmp

Dholloway1962 already gave us the answer in black and white. While I disagree with the rule, that IS the rule. Ball must be live for us to call a runner out for being physically assisted by anyone other than another offensive runner. So the second sitch brought up (going from no outs to 2 outs) has the same call because it's the same rule. We can't call the BR out for this, period.

At least, not until the rule changes.

I threw a ball back into play as soon as that one went out?