Runner assisted by coach

[Dakota]

Here's a situation that was discussed this past weekend during umpire down time.

Bottom of the 7th. Home down by 1 run. No outs. R1 at 3B. R2 at 2B. Batter hits an over-the-fence home run. BR jubilant, jumping, hopping, etc., toward 1B and jumps over 1B (doesn't touch) and continues toward 2B. R1 has crossed home. 1B coach grabs BR and pulls her back to touch 1B.

Call? How many runs score?

ASA Rules.

[whiskers_ump]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Here's a situation that was discussed this past weekend during umpire down time.

Bottom of the 7th. Home down by 1 run. No outs. R1 at 3B. R2 at 2B. Batter hits an over-the-fence home run. BR jubilant, jumping, hopping, etc., toward 1B and jumps over 1B (doesn't touch) and continues toward 2B. R1 has crossed home. 1B coach grabs BR and pulls her back to touch 1B.

Call? How many runs score?

ASA Rules.

2 since the ball is still live, and only the runner assisted is out.

[youngump]

So I've waded in without checking the rulebook twice today and been wrong ... so let's try for the full strikeout.

BR is out for being assisted. The other two runners score and the game is over.
________
MatureLina live

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Dakota

Here's a situation that was discussed this past weekend during umpire down time.

Bottom of the 7th. Home down by 1 run. No outs. R1 at 3B. R2 at 2B. Batter hits an over-the-fence home run. BR jubilant, jumping, hopping, etc., toward 1B and jumps over 1B (doesn't touch) and continues toward 2B. R1 has crossed home. 1B coach grabs BR and pulls her back to touch 1B.

Call? How many runs score?

ASA Rules.

Didn't I see this happen to Mark McGuire?

FP or SP?

[Ed Maeder]

The ball is dead! I have all three runs scoring and no assist. (8-7-E & 1- Dead Ball)

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Didn't I see this happen to Mark McGuire?

FP or SP?

Ha! Maybe..

Anyway, FP, but answer for both...

[umpharp]

Since BR never reached 1st base before being called out due to interference....I have no runs scoring.

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Ed Maeder

The ball is dead! I have all three runs scoring and no assist. (8-7-E & 1- Dead Ball)

This is the ruling I'm inclined to go with. The only hold up I'm running into is that I can't find anything that explicitly says a ball is dead on a home run. Common sense would lead me to think that since the ball is no longer in the playing field, it is a dead ball.

umpharp, that's only true if it is the third out of an inning.

[Ed Maeder]

I too could not find anything that states the ball is dead on a home run, other then the definition of a dead ball. On a home run over the fence, the ball is defiantly not in play.

[umpharp]

my bad...thats what I get for skimming the question.

I would have two runs scoring and the BR out for coaches interference.

Because the ball is dead, I don't have this being a timing play.....could it be?

You have to have the out at first because the defense could appeal if the coach had not pulled the BR back...in this case, the out doesn't really matter because the winning run scored

[Welpe]

Originally Posted by Ed Maeder

I too could not find anything that states the ball is dead on a home run, other then the definition of a dead ball. On a home run over the fence, the ball is defiantly not in play.

I agree, its not in play and in rule 8-5-I, a ball bouncing over the fence is dead so I am comfortable in saying the ball is dead on a home run.

umpharp, according to 8-7-E the runner being assisted is out only if the ball is live. "The runner is out: When any offensive team member, other than another runner, physically assists a runner while the ball is live."

In SP (other than Senior's and Master's) this is all a moot point.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by Ed Maeder

The ball is dead! I have all three runs scoring and no assist. (8-7-E & 1- Dead Ball)

Let's also be reminded that awarded bases (and a home run also fits that category) must be touched in legal order (with the exception of home runs in certain categories of adult slowpitch). If the base must be touched, failure to touch can be appealed; if failure can be appealed, then an assist must be penalized.

To allow the assist to be unpenalized would put the awarded base to supercede the offensive transgression, and we know that offensive transgressions (like interference) always supercede defensive transgressions (like obstruction). When I used to do football, that was called the "clean hands" theory; the defense couldn't keep a turnover if it was preceded by a defensive foul.

We have two runs scoring (R1 & R2), and BR is out. The location of the violation is immaterial with no outs; with two outs, the BR (who has passed, but missed first base) is out fore the third out, but the runs still score in ASA. This is another case where the ASA ruling on fourth out appeals disadvantages the defense, as the defense cannot appeal the missed base by the BR who did not score (when called out after passing the base).

[Welpe]

Steve-

I am very hesitant to disagree with you based upon your knowledge and experience and I think your interpretation makes the most sense on how to handle this play, but it seems to conflict with the text of 8-7-E. Is there a published ASA interpretation addressing this?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by AtlUmpSteve

... with two outs, the BR (who has passed, but missed first base) is out fore the third out, but the runs still score in ASA. This is another case where the ASA ruling on fourth out appeals disadvantages the defense, as the defense cannot appeal the missed base by the BR who did not score (when called out after passing the base).

I think you are confusing an appeal for the third out with an appeal for an advantageous fourth out. The runs can be nullified in ASA with an appeal of the BR missing 1B for the 3rd out.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by Ed Maeder

I too could not find anything that states the ball is dead on a home run, other then the definition of a dead ball. On a home run over the fence, the ball is defiantly not in play.

Does the ball touch the ground, a wall, fence, building, anything outside of playable territory? If it does, it is dead.