Pinch runner for a courtesy runner?

[jwwashburn]

deleted by me and re-stated below.

[umpharp]

You're post was a little confussing, but from what I gather you may have made a mistake.

A runner who is used as a CR can not enter the game or run for anybody else during that half inning.
Once #8 was used as the CR for the catcher, she was done for that half inning. She can enter the game as a normal sub and go in for the pitcher when that team goes back on defense.

What the coach could have/should have done was to place another player as a CR for the pitcher (assuming she got hurt after getting on base and not while still at bat.) then put #8 in as a sub at the start of the next half inning. OR the coach could have put another sub into the game for the pitcher....then sub in #8 at the start of the next half inning.

[jwwashburn]

Ok, Lemme start over....I will explain it better this time...I promise!

The catcher leads off the inning with a single.

#8 is the courtesy runner for the CACTCHER.

The next batter is the PITCHER who is HBP and injured. #8 advances to 2B and a runner runs for the PITCHER at 1B. (Pinch runner or Courtesy runner, it does not matter)

Now, the Offensive Coach realizes that #8 needs to warm up to pitch and he sends in a pinch runner for her at 2B.

My partner and I looked it up after the game and could not find anything to address this. the NFHS book says that there can be no "courtesy runner" for a courtesy runner. I have never seen a pinch runner for a courtesy runner but, since I knew of no rule that forbids it, I allowed it.

Did I do it right?

Joe in Michigan

[SC Ump]

If #8 is the "catcer's courtesy runner" then she should not have been allowed to be the CR for the pitcher. She could have been put in as a substitute (pinch runner) for the Pitcher, as long as she had not already been used as a CR in the inning we're discussing.

Once she was the substitute for the pitcher, a second substitute could have taken her place while she warmed up, but if that happened, #8 would have been considered to have entered the game and left one time.

Had this been a legal CR for the pitcher, then a substitute could have entered the game for her while she warmed up.

[jwwashburn]

Originally Posted by SC Ump

If #8 is the "catcer's courtesy runner" then she should not have been allowed to be the CR for the pitcher. She could have been put in as a substitute (pinch runner) for the Pitcher, as long as she had not already been used as a CR in the inning we're discussing.

#8 was the CATCHER's CR she did not run for the pitcher. Some other player ran for the pitcher. this had nothing to do with who ran for the pitcher.

Originally Posted by SC Ump

Once she was the substitute for the pitcher, a second substitute could have taken her place while she warmed up, but if that happened, #8 would have been considered to have entered the game and left one time.

Ok, this sort of answers my question. Is it ok to pinch run for a courtesy runner? Maybe I just should have never mentioned that the pitcher ever batted. I think that is where folks got confused. Forget that the pitcher ever batted, that is not relevant. All I need to know is if it is ok to pinch run for a courtesy runner. Since the book forbids a courtesy runner for a courtesy runner and never mentions a legal sub for a courtesy runner, we were not sure we got it right.

Joe in Michigan

[MNBlue]

Rule 8-9-1
The team at bat may use a courtesy runner for the pitcher and/or catcher at any time. Neither the pitcher nor the catcher will be required to leave the game under such circumstances. The same courtesy runner may not run for both the pitcher and the catcher at any time during the game.

Rule 8-9-4
A player may not be a substitute for any player in the half inning that she ran as a courtesy runner.

Exception: Injury or disqualification with no eligible substitutes available.

Rule 8-9-6
Once the courtesy runner is designated for that half inning, the pitcher or catcher for whom she is running may not return to run while that courtesy runner is on base. A courtesy runner cannot run for a courtesy runner.

Exceptions: Injury or disqualification to other offensive players with no eligible substitures available. Also, injury or disqualification to the courtesy runner with no eligible substitutes available, the player for whom she is running may return to run the bases, or a legal substitute may be entered.

With all these rules in mind, here is how I would answer your question. When the pitcher was HBP and he wanted to have courtesy runner (CR) #8 begin warming up, the offensive coach had one option - replace the catcher with a substitute and put the substitute on base to replace the CR. Since a CR cannot replace a CR (8-9-6), that option is out, and since the catcher hasn't offcicially left the game/batting order (8-9-1), in order to get CR #8 off the bases to start warming up, a substitute for the catcher would be the only way. Unless he didn't care about the outs and had CR #8 step off early on the next legal/illegal pitch.

Burn an out or a substitution for the catcher, that is basically the decision.

[JEL]

If there were no subs available, #8 could be then subbed in for the pitcher, and the catcher would be placed on second to run, per ART.4 and 6 EXCEPTION(s). That still won't get #8 in the pen to warm up.

"Since the book forbids a courtesy runner for a courtesy runner and never mentions a legal sub for a courtesy runner, we were not sure we got it right."

There can be no substitute for a courtesy runner because the courtesy runner is not in the line up.


#8 will just have to score quickly, then get warm-ups.

[JEL]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

With all these rules in mind, here is how I would answer your question. When the pitcher was HBP and he wanted to have courtesy runner (CR) #8 begin warming up, the offensive coach had one option - replace the catcher with a substitute and put the substitute on base to replace the CR. Since a CR cannot replace a CR (8-9-6), that option is out, and since the catcher hasn't offcicially left the game/batting order (8-9-1), in order to get CR #8 off the bases to start warming up, a substitute for the catcher would be the only way. Unless he didn't care about the outs and had CR #8 step off early on the next legal/illegal pitch.

Burn an out or a substitution for the catcher, that is basically the decision.

That sounds plausible, but I'm not sure it is legal.

ASA and NFHS CR rules are identical, so in doing some digging per ASA I found a 2007 ASA test question which is pertinent.

36FP) JO Fast Pitch. In the bottom of the third inning, B1, who is the catcher, leads off with a single. After reaching 1B the offensive coach requests time and reports CR1 for the catcher. R2 executes a sacrifice bunt moving CR1 to 2B. The offensive coach again requests time and reports that S1 will substitute for B1, the catcher, and CR1 will return to the dugout. The umpire rules:
a. Illegal, a substitute may not enter the game for a courtesy runner.
b. Illegal, the team must put the catcher back in for the courtesy runner.
c. Legal and S1 replaces the catcher in the line-up.
d. None of the above.

The answer key says "d" is the correct answer, which would make "c" not legal. The rules reference though is to 8-9-B-2 which is NOT the Fast Pitch section. I can't find where subbing for the catcher would be dis-allowed in the rules, but according to the test it would not be allowed. Perhaps there is a mis-print in the ASA test, or (heaven forbid) I am not reading something correctly!

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by JEL

That sounds plausible, but I'm not sure it is legal.

ASA and NFHS CR rules are identical, so in doing some digging per ASA I found a 2007 ASA test question which is pertinent.

36FP) JO Fast Pitch. In the bottom of the third inning, B1, who is the catcher, leads off with a single. After reaching 1B the offensive coach requests time and reports CR1 for the catcher. R2 executes a sacrifice bunt moving CR1 to 2B. The offensive coach again requests time and reports that S1 will substitute for B1, the catcher, and CR1 will return to the dugout. The umpire rules:
a. Illegal, a substitute may not enter the game for a courtesy runner.
b. Illegal, the team must put the catcher back in for the courtesy runner.
c. Legal and S1 replaces the catcher in the line-up.
d. None of the above.

The answer key says "d" is the correct answer, which would make "c" not legal. The rules reference though is to 8-9-B-2 which is NOT the Fast Pitch section. I can't find where subbing for the catcher would be dis-allowed in the rules, but according to the test it would not be allowed. Perhaps there is a mis-print in the ASA test, or (heaven forbid) I am not reading something correctly!

I considered "c", but remembered that the pitcher or catcher can not run in place of the CR, unless the CR is injured.
Which is also saying that "a" applies, but is not the whole story or I guess the point of the question.

[Dakota]

1) The catcher cannot return to run once the CR has been entered, barring an injury to the CR or to another player with no other subs available.

2) The CR cannot have either a CR (by rule) or a sub (since the CR is not officially in the lineup).

3) The catcher can have a sub, but whether the starting catcher or her sub, neither can return to run for the CR (exceptions noted above).

I do not believe what the coach did was legal.

[MNBlue]

Originally Posted by Dakota

1) The catcher cannot return to run once the CR has been entered, barring an injury to the CR or to another player with no other subs available.

2) The CR cannot have either a CR (by rule) or a sub (since the CR is not officially in the lineup).

3) The catcher can have a sub, but whether the starting catcher or her sub, neither can return to run for the CR (exceptions noted above).

I do not believe what the coach did was legal.

I see your points, and could probably be led to interpret the situation this way. But here are my questions:

Does a courtesy runner NOT qualify as a player? 3-3-2

The other issue I have, is that had the offensive coach substituted #8 for F2, all of this is irrelevant, since #8 is a player and the coach could substitute for #8, either by re-entry or another eligible sub. But, by declaring #8 a courtesy runner, #8 is locked to the basepath, even though by being able to substitute for a CR, the coach doesn't lose any options had he originally substituted in the first place.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by MNBlue

I see your points, and could probably be led to interpret the situation this way. But here are my questions:

Does a courtesy runner NOT qualify as a player? 3-3-2

The other issue I have, is that had the offensive coach substituted #8 for F2, all of this is irrelevant, since #8 is a player and the coach could substitute for #8, either by re-entry or another eligible sub. But, by declaring #8 a courtesy runner, #8 is locked to the basepath, even though by being able to substitute for a CR, the coach doesn't lose any options had he originally substituted in the first place.

I agree the issue goes away if the runner had been a pinch runner instead of a CR.

A CR is a player wrt the general rules regarding players (proper uniform, etc.), but she is not in the lineup. By definition, becoming a CR does not enter the player in the game wrt entry, batting order, or re-entry. So, if the CR can have a sub, what position in the batting order does this sub occupy? If it is the catcher's position, then the sub is for the catcher, not the CR. If it is no position, then she is not a sub, but a CR for a CR.

In the heat of the moment, I may very well have allowed it, just as the OP did. But, given the time to think it through, I don't think it is legal.

[JEL]

OOPS!

I told you I may not be reading it correctly! The answer for the FP #36 IS "c".
I was reading the slow-pitch variant of the question which is "d".


The proper rule references for the FP question are; 4-6, 8-9, 10A-2, and 8-10F. I still don't see where these are conclusive, but at least there is a precedence for allowing the substitution. The substitution would be legal, there is nothing I can find to say otherwise, but where I am still not clear is if the F2 can not return to run, why would the F2 sub be allowed to enter and run? If any injury scenario, the EXCEPTIONs may apply.

The CR rule is a speed-up tool anyway, so using that logic you may want to get the "new" pitcher off the base, but the "new" F2 will remain, so have we sped up, or not?

[CecilOne]

The catcher can not run for the CR unless the CR is injured or unless another player is injured and the player being CR is the only available sub.
In this case, S2 is available, so the injury to F1 does not qualify as an exception.

S1 can replace F2, but can not take over as the runner.

[jwwashburn]

OK, could the Offensive coach have changed #8 from a CR to a PR THEn replaced #8? This all seems silly, but I would like to do things correctly.

Joe in Michigan