a rough night

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

No official has the authority to change another officials decision. JR, that's fine and dandy but disagreements do occur. It's a fact of life. Whether an official is suppose to or not, is not where this person is here today posting this situation, it is also not the real world. Maybe in the games you do this never happens, but in the games I have done, it has occasionally happened, and yes, there are some arrogant officials who will try and overrule your call and control the game. If you're unwilling to admit this never happens, than we are done talking. Just like it's a crime to steal. Just because the code of law says it's illegal doesn't mean it never happens. I've always approach the rulebook as a guide, not an absolute. Not everything is written that can possibly happen to you on the court. Now we got to deal with it. Just like if I walk in and catch a robber in my home. Sure, it should never happen because it's against the law, but guess what, it happens and I now got to deal with it because this thief is in my house right now.

Sh!t Happens

Just can't seem to find your rule book and case book , can you?

Well, JMO, contrary to what you posted above, the R is NOT responsible to make a decision when officials disagree on a call in a situation like the one posted in this thread. I just wanted to make sure that any new or inexperienced officials reading your post didn't make the mistake of believing that your statement that he was might be correct.

[rainmaker]

Section 2-5 is also helpful.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Section 2-5 is also helpful.

Yup, it certainly is. It spells out the one very specific situation when the R can actually decide something if the officials do disagree( and if you don't count the timer/scorer as being officials per se). Unfortunately, Old School, that situation isn't the one that we're discussing though. Any idea what that situation is? Hint...look up NFHS rule 2-5-2.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Just can't seem to find your rule book and case book , can you?

Well, JMO, contrary to what you posted above, the R is NOT responsible to make a decision when officials disagree on a call. I just wanted to make sure that any new or inexperienced reading your post didn't make the mistake of believing that statement might be correct.

I don't know who JMO is, and by the code of law you are correct. Now tell us what to do when officials disagree? Jump Ball? flip a coin? duke it out? What do we do genius?

I think any inexperienced official should not try and challenge the R on a ruling, even if he/she knows the R is wrong. That is a perfect recipe for disaster. Might take a long time to live that one down if not totally ruin the new official career for life.

Peace

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Old School

I don't know who JMO is, and by the code of law you are correct. Now tell us what to do when officials disagree? Jump Ball? flip a coin? duke it out? What do we do genius?

I think any inexperienced official should not try and challenge the R on a ruling, even if he/she knows the R is wrong. That is a perfect recipe for disaster. Might take a long time to live that one down if not totally ruin the new official career for life.

Peace

The book tells you clearly what to do when the officials disagree. What part of "No" don't you understand, genius?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Now tell us what to do when officials disagree? Jump Ball? flip a coin? duke it out? What do we do genius?

Old School, do you own a current NFHS rule and case book? Yes or no? If the answer is "yes", then all you have to do is look up the cites given to date in this thread. I've told you several times in different threads where to find rules citations saying that you are wrong in your assumptions, but you never seem to just go and look up those citations to see if I'm correct or not.

I don't want to get into a flame war with you, and it kinda looks like Bob really doesn't want me too either. But.....all you really had to do was look up the rules citations that I gave you, and you'd know exactly what the proper procedures to follow are when 2 officials disagree. And I can tell you that you won't find anything anywhere in there that I know of that states that the R can make a decision when 2 officials disagree, except for the one very specific situation that I also cited a rules reference for above--such situation not being relevant in any way to the situation that is being discussed in this thread.

My point is that if you don't own rule and case books, or if you don't know the rules, it's probably not really a good idea to try and answer rules-related questions.

[Adam]

Good grief. Here’s what you do. The calling official’s call stands. In this case, the calling official determined the penalty for the foul was bonus free throws. The R decided to overrule that call and have a spot throw-in instead. He overruled the other official, this is not allowed by rule.
In this case, when the officials disagree, the calling official makes the choice. It’s the same thing every time the officials disagree (OOB, fouls, etc.); except in one instance.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Good grief. Here’s what you do. The calling official’s call stands. In this case, the calling official determined the penalty for the foul was bonus free throws. The R decided to overrule that call and have a spot throw-in instead. He overruled the other official, this is not allowed by rule.
In this case, when the officials disagree, the calling official makes the choice. It’s the same thing every time the officials disagree (OOB, fouls, etc.); except in one instance.

You are wise beyond your years, Snaqs.

You must be a Yankees fan.

And if both officials do happen to make a call at the same time, then they must decide between themselves what the final call will be- again except for the instance mentioned by Snaqs above and one other particular instance.

To sum up, for anybody that cares, because I get the feeling that OLD School isn't going to look it up for us...
- if the officials disagree about whether a basket should count or not, they get together and try to reach a consensus. If they can't, the R can then make the final decision- in this particular instance only. That's what Snaqs was referring to.
- if the timer and scorer(s) disagree on something, then the R can decide. The R can also correct obvious timing errors and bookkeeping mistakes.
- if 2 officials make different calls at approximately the same time on the same play, then they must decide between themselves which call they're going to go with. The R does not have the authority to make his own decision in a case like this. The exception to this is if each official called a foul on different players involved in the same play--i.e. on a block/charge. In this case, if the officials can't agree, then each player will be charged with a foul. Again though, the R can not step in and make a decision.

It ain't rocket science. It's just rules that you should know.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Old School, do you own a current NFHS rule and case book? Yes or no?

Grow up....

I've told you several times in different threads where to find rules citations saying that you are wrong in your assumptions, but you never seem to just go and look up those citations to see if I'm correct or not.

It's not what you say but how you say it.

I don't want to get into a flame war with you, and it kinda looks like Bob really doesn't want me too either.

Then why do you continue to do it?

But.....all you really had to do was look up the rules citations that I gave you, and you'd know exactly what the proper procedures to follow are when 2 officials disagree.

That rule citation does not address this poster original question or my scenario. As I told you before I have personal experience with this type of behavior. If you want to insist that this type of thing never happens, then okay. But please don't take this the wrong way, but, that just means you are not qualified to answer this question. If you want to say like most of the others here to stand your ground, going by the written word in the book that no official can overrule another officials decision. You just invited a rookie official, and it doesn't have to be a rookie official either, but you just invited an official to go to war with his partner right there face to face. Have you ever heard of 2 officials coming to blows, that right, fighting in a game? I have! This is the type of thing that can happen when 2 arrogant guys won't back down. Now what do you do genius? I notice you never answer that question? Okay, I think I need to say this. We already know who's right and who's wrong, rule 2.6, but what does that have to do with it? It's about the pride now, losing face, right and wrong got nothing to do with it now.

Let me say it like this. I asked several senior officials what they would do in my situation. One DI official told me he would walk off the floor and tell the guy he could call the rest of the game without me cause it's obvious he doesn't need me. Maybe one day when I'm established like him I can pull that stunt. Now I understand that that's the macho thing to do, but I also understand that if I walk off an assignment, I'm just as wrong as the official who changed my call, and I might not ever get assigned to a game like that again. My motto Mr. JR is live to fight another day. Do you mind if I share that with the others who might have been in the same boat as I. I said it like this; "You're the R for the game, we're not going to sit here and quibble over who's right or wrong, we got a game to call and finish, go over to the table and tell them what we've going to do, explain it to the coaches and let's move on." It's your hide not mined.

You would be surprised to learn what this assigner did after I told him what happen.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by Old School

Grow up....

It's not what you say but how you say it.

Then why do you continue to do it?

That rule citation does not address this poster original question or my scenario. As I told you before I have personal experience with this type of behavior. If you want to insist that this type of thing never happens, then okay. But please don't take this the wrong way, but, that just means you are not qualified to answer this question. If you want to say like most of the others here to stand your ground, going by the written word in the book that no official can overrule another officials decision. You just invited a rookie official, and it doesn't have to be a rookie official either, but you just invited an official to go to war with his partner right there face to face. Have you ever heard of 2 officials coming to blows, that right, fighting in a game? I have! This is the type of thing that can happen when 2 arrogant guys won't back down. Now what do you do genius? I notice you never answer that question? Okay, I think I need to say this. We already know who's right and who's wrong, rule 2.6, but what does that have to do with it? It's about the pride now, losing face, right and wrong got nothing to do with it now.

Let me say it like this. I asked several senior officials what they would do in my situation. One DI official told me he would walk off the floor and tell the guy he could call the rest of the game without me cause it's obvious he doesn't need me. Maybe one day when I'm established like him I can pull that stunt. Now I understand that that's the macho thing to do, but I also understand that if I walk off an assignment, I'm just as wrong as the official who changed my call, and I might not ever get assigned to a game like that again. My motto Mr. JR is live to fight another day. Do you mind if I share that with the others who might have been in the same boat as I. I said it like this; "You're the R for the game, we're not going to sit here and quibble over who's right or wrong, we got a game to call and finish, go over to the table and tell them what we've going to do, explain it to the coaches and let's move on." It's your hide not mined.

You would be surprised to learn what this assigner did after I told him what happen.

All of this and the vast majority of what this poster says is nonsense. It is detrimental to the forum and I would ask that this poster be removed from the forum. He is helping no one - most importantly newer officials who are looking for real help with this job. Enough is enough. Moderators - please do something about this guy.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Old School

Grow up....

It's not what you say but how you say it.

Then why do you continue to do it?

That rule citation does not address this poster original question or my scenario.

As I told you before I have personal experience with this type of behavior. If you want to insist that this type of thing never happens, then okay. But please don't take this the wrong way, but, that just means you are not qualified to answer this question. If you want to say like most of the others here to stand your ground, going by the written word in the book that no official can overrule another officials decision. You just invited a rookie official, and it doesn't have to be a rookie official either, but you just invited an official to go to war with his partner right there face to face. Have you ever heard of 2 officials coming to blows, that right, fighting in a game? I have! This is the type of thing that can happen when 2 arrogant guys won't back down. Now what do you do genius? I notice you never answer that question? Okay, I think I need to say this. We already know who's right and who's wrong, rule 2.6, but what does that have to do with it? It's about the pride now, losing face, right and wrong got nothing to do with it now.

Let me say it like this. I asked several senior officials what they would do in my situation. One DI official told me he would walk off the floor and tell the guy he could call the rest of the game without me cause it's obvious he doesn't need me. Maybe one day when I'm established like him I can pull that stunt. Now I understand that that's the macho thing to do, but I also understand that if I walk off an assignment, I'm just as wrong as the official who changed my call, and I might not ever get assigned to a game like that again. My motto Mr. JR is live to fight another day. Do you mind if I share that with the others who might have been in the same boat as I. I said it like this; "You're the R for the game, we're not going to sit here and quibble over who's right or wrong, we got a game to call and finish, go over to the table and tell them what we've going to do, explain it to the coaches and let's move on." It's your hide not mined.

You would be surprised to learn what this assigner did after I told him what happen.

What you're asking is what to do if the "established guy" tries to pull rank and insist on overruling you, you finish the game as best you can and then you report to the assignor that you don't want to work with him again and why. But none of that has anything to do with what the OP posted, or with what JR was talking about.

What JR was talking about was the rules as published, and the books where those rules are printed. You have never given any indication that you even care about the books, or the rules. What you do in a certain situation is completely irrelevant to the OP. You just set up a straw man (do you know what that means?) and then knock it over, but you don't address the original situation.

The OP asked, "He's the veteran, what else could I do?" JR is telling him what the rules say about what OP could have done. You have your own opinions, but so what? As officials we follow rules as written, with some flexibility within what's prescribed.

What OP could have done was to go to the table and say, "I called such and so, and that's what we're going to do" and then go to the appropriate place and get play started. If partner is *** enough to try to overrule at that point, then you let him be the one that walks away or stops the game inappropriately. Arguing is pointless. For the OP to stand up for himself and be firm isn't starting a war. It isn't either "my way or the highway" for the R. The U can stand firm without coming to blows, and that's what the rule book prescribes.

It's really not this complicated, at least, it doesn't need to be.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Smitty

All of this and the vast majority of what this poster says is nonsense. It is detrimental to the forum and I would ask that this poster be removed from the forum. He is helping no one - most importantly newer officials who are looking for real help with this job. Enough is enough. Moderators - please do something about this guy.

I'm not sure I agree. This discussion gives newbies, and others, a chance to see wrong opinions and wrong attitudes in action. The smart ones won't need to learn some of these lessons the hard way.

[Smitty]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I'm not sure I agree. This discussion gives newbies, and others, a chance to see wrong opinions and wrong attitudes in action. The smart ones won't need to learn some of these lessons the hard way.

If he even occasionally came up with something useful I might think the same way, but it appears that he only posts to ruffle feathers. There is nothing he says that is even remotely correct or useful. He is, in every sense of the word, a troll. It is dangerous to newbies. There is enough debate and conversation for people to see wrong interpretations based on logical thoughts.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Smitty

What does that even mean? This guy is bringing the effectiveness of this forum down a few notches.

Smitty, when you say I bring the forum down a notch, was exactly to you mean? Never mind, don't answer that.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Old School

Smitty, when you say I bring the forum down a notch, was exactly to you mean? Never mind, don't answer that.

Ok, then I will.

You have made different statements over the course of your time registered as Old School that cannot be backed up by rule or case play. Most, if not all of the people that come here are looking for advice and discussion based upon the knowledge of the others. Since you have been free in posting your advice, it would be helpful for the others to know a few things about you.

First, do you officiate basketball?
Second, what levels do you currently officiate?
Third, what qualifications do you have, or organizations do you belong to that help elevate your knowledge as an official?

Once we find out the legitimate answers to these questions, you may (or may not) have less hostility directed towards your responses.