a rough night

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

JR, you can continue to play your games as long as you want. If you want to make this about my rulebook, then go right ahead, I can't stop you, but I can say this. What does the fact that I got a rulebook or not have to do with the question the original poster asked? And also, the answer was not in the rulebook. We all know that neither official can change another officials call, what we didn't know, or what I didn't know and yes, I enhanced the original poster question to what to do when the other official won't back down? That was the issue for me, and that was the question I needed answered.

Again, JMO, you posted re: the original post--that if the officials can't agree in a situation like the original post, then the R decides. That statement was completely wrong , as per the rules that I cited. You continued to argue otherwise instead of simply picking up your rule/case books and checking the references. And this is certainly not the first time that you have done something like this on other subjects also. You have been asked before what is contained in a rules citation or case book play, and you always dodge the answer. That certainly leads me to the conclusion that you do not possess current rules and case books. You also adamantly refuse to answer whether you actually do have books. I hate to break this too, and this really isn't a flame, but the only conclusion that logically can be reached is that you are NOT an official per se. If you are are just a fanboy passing through, then post away. But please don't post obviously incorrect rules information that you have no backing for. That does more harm than good when it comes to the new or inexperienced officials that are trying to learn and improve by reading this forum.

And again, quite obviously JMO.

[refnjoe]

Originally Posted by Old School

This makes both of you look stupid. Make a decision and move on. If you are not the R for the game, stand down and let the R make the decision. If it's the wrong thing to do, it is on the R and it will come back to him.

Originally Posted by Old School

challenging a more senior partner could be detrimental to your career. Don't ever think it's okay to show up your partner like you have been advised to do here.

Originally Posted by Old School

The next thing you need to do in my opinion is call the person that assigned you the game.

My post just before this one states that I did check in with not one, but THREE senior officials. One is a mentor. One is the JV rep on our exec board, and the other is the Asst. Signing Secretary who is my point of contact regarding assignments.

Their unanimous advice is the opposite of yours. As the calling official, it is my responsibility to administer the penalty. This wasn't a judgment call or an error in foul count for the bonus, etc. as you had suggested earlier, this was KICKING A RULE. They all said I should have lined up the shooter and shot the one and one.

I was advised that if an evaluator had been present, or a coach complained about this incident, the R would have been suspended, and chances are I would have been as well.

The best advice they gave me was to be confident enough to be sure of what I KNOW, and to admit when I don't know. That way, I know when to be firm and when to let experience prevail.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

I am the mother of four children, three of them grown (and one little caboose baby who is on prednisone at the moment.) I know obnoxious and difficult when I see it, and I"ve seen a lot of it!!

I have too, except I see it on the court, fans, coaches, losing players, etc.

Yesterday, you sounded like a 12-year-old who's backed into a corner, and has neither the wisdom to talk your way out, nor the maturity to give in. Today you sound like an 8-year-old who is reduced to repeating the same tired phrase over and over again, without any consideration of the reality of the situation. The only question remaining is whether you can maintain that level, or if you'll sink further still. Moderators, it's time to close this thread, preferably before OS gets the last word!!

What does this have to do with the subject we are discussing? Are we a little off-track here or is it you can't articulate your position and now you are digressing to insults. Now who's the child?

Peace

[Adam]

And we'll throw some projection in just for fun.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by refnjoe

The best advice they gave me was to be confident enough to be sure of what I KNOW, and to admit when I don't know. That way, I know when to be firm and when to let experience prevail.

You also learned never to listen to non-officials who don't own rule books.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Old School

What does this have to do with the subject we are discussing? Are we a little off-track here or is it you can't articulate your position and now you are digressing to insults. Now who's the child?

I think I've articulated my position pretty clearly. Have you read these posts?

Originally Posted by rainmaker

What you're asking is what to do if the "established guy" tries to pull rank and insist on overruling you, you finish the game as best you can and then you report to the assignor that you don't want to work with him again and why. But none of that has anything to do with what the OP posted, or with what JR was talking about.

What JR was talking about was the rules as published, and the books where those rules are printed. You have never given any indication that you even care about the books, or the rules. What you do in a certain situation is completely irrelevant to the OP. You just set up a straw man (do you know what that means?) and then knock it over, but you don't address the original situation.

The OP asked, "He's the veteran, what else could I do?" JR is telling him what the rules say about what OP could have done. You have your own opinions, but so what? As officials we follow rules as written, with some flexibility within what's prescribed.

What OP could have done was to go to the table and say, "I called such and so, and that's what we're going to do" and then go to the appropriate place and get play started. If partner is *** enough to try to overrule at that point, then you let him be the one that walks away or stops the game inappropriately. Arguing is pointless. For the OP to stand up for himself and be firm isn't starting a war. It isn't either "my way or the highway" for the R. The U can stand firm without coming to blows, and that's what the rule book prescribes.

Originally Posted by rainmaker

The problem is that there's a false dichotomy set up here. This isn't an either/or situation.

Of course if the partner gets nasty and starts yelling and gesticulating, you back down.

But that's not generally the problem. Generally, the newer, less experienced ref (who is also generally not the R) isn't sure whether to insist on his way, or not. When we say here that the R does not have the right to overrule the U, we're saying that the U needs to learn how to appropriately assert his own call, and administer it in a reasonable fashion.

Whoever calls something has the right to go ahead and administer that call. No one has the right to overrule. If the "more experienced" ref tries to step in and insist on overruling, then the other calling official needs to know how to assert himself in an appropirate manner. It can be done. And it doesn't have to lead to blows or yelling.

If I make a call and my partner insists on being obnoxious, I might back down for the sake of protecting the integrity of the game, or I might stand firm for the sake of the integrity of the game. Either way, I'm gonna report the idiot. And I have.

What OP needs to know, is that yelling, fighting in public scenario isn't all that common, and it's not something that needs to be worried about. If OP will calmly but firmly manage the situation and assert his own correctness (even when he's wrong!), 90% (or more!) of partners will cope with it, and back down. Which is, btw, the right thing to do.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Again, JMO, you posted re: the original post--that if the officials can't agree in a situation like the original post, then the R decides. That statement was completely wrong , as per the rules that I cited.

I don't disagree with this statement JR, however, my point is this. I don't want an official who's been working for a short period of time, or who does not have the experience of a senior official, to think he knows more than someone who's been doing it longer. If in doubt yield. In this particular case, the R was wrong, but, realistically speaking, how often is that going to happen? More times than not, the R or senior official will know more and new or younger officials need to stand down to the person with more seniority. Rule knowledge which is what you advocate is the key to knowing whether one is right or wrong. I just don't want to be working with a new guy and he thinks he's 110% correct on a call, and I know he's not, I'm the R and I can't get him to let it go. This has happen too, and as a assigner, when I run into pig headed new officials like this, you can believe they don't get no more assignments from me. You see, nobody mention this! The human side of the equation. You gave us the book side JR, which is correct and I stand down to that. BUT!!! Big but, there's two sides to every coin. I'm just approaching it from a different prospective. Some of you really need to learn how to think outside the box. Seriously....

You continued to argue otherwise instead of simply picking up your rule/case books and checking the references.

How do you know this? Are you 100% sure? How much money would you be willing to put down on this statement?

I hate to break this too, and this really isn't a flame, but the only conclusion that logically can be reached is that you are NOT an official per se.

Please explain whether or not I'm an official has to do with this topic? Are we having a hard time focusing, staying on point?

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Old School - good to see you back.

Did you see my post earlier?:

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

First, do you officiate basketball?
Second, what levels do you currently officiate?
Third, what qualifications do you have, or organizations do you belong to that help elevate your knowledge as an official?

Once we find out the legitimate answers to these questions, you may (or may not) have less hostility directed towards your responses.

[M&M Guy]

Huh.

He disappeared again.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

How do you know this? Are you 100% sure? How much money would you be willing to put down on this statement?

I'd bet my life.

It's not hard to separate the real, live bonafide officials from the...well....non-officials. It's kinda basic that real officials would have the proper and appropriate rule books. You don't, do you?

You, sir, are not an official.

JMO!!

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by Old School

I don't want an official who's been working for a short period of time, or who does not have the experience of a senior official, to think he knows more than someone who's been doing it longer. If in doubt yield. In this particular case, the R was wrong, but,


Peace

But you do want senior officials who screw up rules and foul administration and won't listen to anyone who tries to tell them they are wrong??!! Wow... in this particular case the R was dead wrong, but by your standard that doesn't matter because he's the senior, more experienced guy and the younger, less-experienced guy should just go with what the senior, more experienced guy says...that's assinine.

[MadCityRef]

Now you have learned the supreme lesson of officiating: Experience does not equal talent. Wait 'til you work with the 30-year veteran who can't ref his way out of a wet paper bag. -And makes all of your calls for you.- That will be a fun night.
In talking with your assignor, phrase the experience using yourself as the example. "I wonder if I handled this right." I, I, I.
Don't offer specifics until asked for them. Then get out of the way.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by MadCityRef

Now you have learned the supreme lesson of officiating: Experience does not equal talent.

In all instances?

Lah me.....

[Old School]

So many questions, so little time.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Old School - good to see you back.Did you see my post earlier? Huh. He disappeared again.

M&M, about what time Friday did I disappear? What do you think I had to go do? Babysit my 12 years old? No, my kids are grown.

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I'd bet my life. It's not hard to separate the real, live bonafide officials from the...well....non-officials. It's kinda basic that real officials would have the proper and appropriate rule books. You don't, do you? You, sir, are not an official. JMO!!

And you sir, would lose your life. You remind me of the gambler who was up a million dollars and couldn't walk away. Then bet all his earnings and walk out with nothing. My question to you. Was it worth it?

Since you insist on tagging me with this JMO label. Perhaps, I should change my moniker to JMO.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

Since you insist on tagging me with this JMO label. Perhaps, I should change my moniker to JMO.

JMO would be a very appropriate moniker for you, JMO.

I also believe that you didn't answer any of M&M's questions. Any particular reason for that...um...lapse?