a rough night

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

First, do you officiate basketball?
Second, what levels do you currently officiate?
Third, what qualifications do you have, or organizations do you belong to that help elevate your knowledge as an official?

Once we find out the legitimate answers to these questions, you may (or may not) have less hostility directed towards your responses.

You left out:
Fourth: Do you own a current NFHS rules and case book?

I can't possibly think of any other way that you can properly and correctly answer rules-related questions without them.

And that has nothing to do with flaming either.

[zakman2005000]

Originally Posted by Back In The Saddle

Your partner put you in a very unfortunate situation. You've got to decide whether to stand your ground, or let it go. No self-respecting, intelligent official wants to knowingly get a rule wrong. On the other hand, how much conflict with your partner will be required to get it right if he really wants to fight you on this? You've still got a game to manage and getting into a heated exchange with your partner while the world looks on isn't going to help that.

This seems to be the $64,000 question in the sitch of the OP. How far do you go when you know that your position is correct?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by zakman2005000

This seems to be the $64,000 question in the sitch of the OP. How far do you go when you know that your position is correct?

#1) Protect the integrity of the game
#2) Protect the integrity of the participants
#3) Protect the integrity of your crew

#1 is way more important than #3...go as far as you need to to protect the game.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

You have never given any indication that you even care about the books, or the rules. What you do in a certain situation is completely irrelevant to the OP. You just set up a straw man (do you know what that means?) and then knock it over, but you don't address the original situation.

I respectively disagree. I take offense to anyone who tries to shove it down my throat, or discredit me like JR does. Setting up the straw analogy is pretty good, thank you. I try to speak thru example, lead thru example because I've been there. There is some benefit to be learned thru the trials, errors and experiences of others. You are right about one thing. I do not care what others who wish only to discredit me, think.

I also think it's over the top to silence another who views and opinions are different from yours. This is suppose to be America. One last thing. I do not thing the book goes far enough on the issue of when referee's disagree. What if both referees feel they are right? True, calling official has presidence over the call, but homer ref who's also the R doesn't let it go? In a situation like this, you are now outside the boundaries of the rulebook. Maybe it doesn't happen in the world you ref in, but I have seen it happen.

A wise man once said, people who live in glass house should not throw stones.

[zakman2005000]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

#1) Protect the integrity of the game
#2) Protect the integrity of the participants
#3) Protect the integrity of your crew

#1 is way more important than #3...go as far as you need to to protect the game.

Just so I understand you, are you saying that it's more important to get the administration correct and potentially "air dirty laundry" for all to see, or go with an incorrect administration and not cause a scene. Not trolling, just interested in getting a clarification.

I think this is an interesting situation and I am glad that I know my partners well enough that all it would take is, "I'm 100% sure on this and I'll take the heat if I'm not".

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by zakman2005000

Just so I understand you, are you saying that it's more important to get the administration correct and potentially "air dirty laundry" for all to see, or go with an incorrect administration and not cause a scene. Not trolling, just interested in getting a clarification.

I think this is an interesting situation and I am glad that I know my partners well enough that all it would take is, "I'm 100% sure on this and I'll take the heat if I'm not".

The problem is that there's a false dichotomy set up here. This isn't an either/or situation.

Of course if the partner gets nasty and starts yelling and gesticulating, you back down.


But that's not generally the problem. Generally, the newer, less experienced ref (who is also generally not the R) isn't sure whether to insist on his way, or not. When we say here that the R does not have the right to overrule the U, we're saying that the U needs to learn how to appropriately assert his own call, and administer it in a reasonable fashion.

Whoever calls something has the right to go ahead and administer that call. No one has the right to overrule. If the "more experienced" ref tries to step in and insist on overruling, then the other calling official needs to know how to assert himself in an appropirate manner. It can be done. And it doesn't have to lead to blows or yelling.

If I make a call and my partner insists on being obnoxious, I might back down for the sake of protecting the integrity of the game, or I might stand firm for the sake of the integrity of the game. Either way, I'm gonna report the idiot. And I have.

What OP needs to know, is that yelling, fighting in public scenario isn't all that common, and it's not something that needs to be worried about. If OP will calmly but firmly manage the situation and assert his own correctness (even when he's wrong!), 90% (or more!) of partners will cope with it, and back down. Which is, btw, the right thing to do.

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by zakman2005000

Just so I understand you, are you saying that it's more important to get the administration correct and potentially "air dirty laundry" for all to see, or go with an incorrect administration and not cause a scene. Not trolling, just interested in getting a clarification.

I think this is an interesting situation and I am glad that I know my partners well enough that all it would take is, "I'm 100% sure on this and I'll take the heat if I'm not".

Protect the integrity of the game...doesn't need to involve any "airing" of anything...just do what needs to be done so the game is administered correctly...if the partner is screwing it up, don't back down just because he/she has more experience...

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Old School

I take offense to anyone who tries to shove it down my throat, or discredit me like JR does.

Gee, all I did was ask you if you actually owned an NFHS rule and case book. That was so I could cite actual rules and case plays during our debates for you to check for accuracy. That's usually how we debate rules-related questions on this forum.

Soooooo......do you own a current NFHS ruleand case book? How about the OFFICIALS MANUAL if a mechanics question pops up?

BTW, JMO always....

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by rockyroad

Protect the integrity of the game...doesn't need to involve any "airing" of anything...just do what needs to be done so the game is administered correctly...if the partner is screwing it up, don't back down just because he/she has more experience...

Agreed. But what if both officials are "110% sure" that their position / interpretation is correct and is the one that upholds the "integrity of the game?" That's the original question.

What if neither is sure (see the thread on foul-whistle-horn-shot for example)?

What if there's (legitimately) a double (or triple) whistle and the officials disagree?

[rockyroad]

Originally Posted by bob jenkins

Agreed. But what if both officials are "110% sure" that their position / interpretation is correct and is the one that upholds the "integrity of the game?" That's the original question.

What if neither is sure (see the thread on foul-whistle-horn-shot for example)?

What if there's (legitimately) a double (or triple) whistle and the officials disagree?

That's why the game "Rock, Paper, Scissors" was invented!

[Old School]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Gee, all I did was ask you if you actually owned an NFHS rule and case book. That was so I could cite actual rules and case plays during our debates for you to check for accuracy. That's usually how we debate rules-related questions on this forum.

Soooooo......do you own a current NFHS ruleand case book? How about the OFFICIALS MANUAL if a mechanics question pops up?

BTW, JMO always....

JR, you can continue to play your games as long as you want. Just remember, people who live in glass houses, should not throw stones. If you want to make this about my rulebook, then go right ahead, I can't stop you, but I can say this. What does the fact that I got a rulebook or not have to do with the question the original poster asked? And also, the answer was not in the rulebook. We all know that neither official can change another officials call, what we didn't know, or what I didn't know and yes, I enhanced the original poster question to what to do when the other official won't back down? That was the issue for me, and that was the question I needed answered.

It took me over 4 pages to get to this point because you kept trying to change the subject and make my point about something that's not important. I call this the art of deception and you are very good at it. You are no different than the coaches and irate fans. I take it all in and I stay focus on the task at hand. I never lose focus on what I am trying to accomplish, now do I? I've already had one person who says I should be kicked off this forum. I can not tell you how many fans have said this to me in one way or the other in my career but I keep pushing on, inspite of and in the face of all this opposition.

Love me or hate me, but I'm a true official for life.

Peace, and BTW, who the heck is JMO?

[tjones1]

Originally Posted by Old School

Peace, and BTW, who the heck is JMO?

Just My Opinion

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Old School

I call this the art of deception and you are very good at it. You are no different than the coaches and irate fans. I take it all in and I stay focus on the task at hand. I never lose focus on what I am trying to accomplish, now do I? I've already had one person who says I should be kicked off this forum. I can not tell you how many fans have said this to me in one way or the other in my career but I keep pushing on, inspite of and in the face of all this opposition.

Nobody's opposing you personally. What we're opposed to is your refusal to listen to what everyone is saying. JR's not deceiving you, regardless of what you call it. He is in fact much different from the coaches and irate fans. You are indeed staying focused on the task at hand, but that task has nothing to do with good officiating. It has to do with being obnoxious and difficult.

And that still doesn't answer the question of whether you own a rule book and a case book, and what levels of ball you work, and what officiating affiliations you have.

[Old School]

Originally Posted by rainmaker

Nobody's opposing you personally. What we're opposed to is your refusal to listen to what everyone is saying.

You make my point. There are referee's like this who stick to there call or position, no matter what. We are all the same, stubborn, stick to our positions. Now what happens when neither of us will let it go? This is my point.

You are indeed staying focused on the task at hand, but that task has nothing to do with good officiating. It has to do with being obnoxious and difficult.

And you're not? Perhaps you need to look in the mirror.

[rainmaker]

Originally Posted by Old School

You make my point. There are referee's like this who stick to there call or position, no matter what. We are all the same, stubborn, stick to our positions. Now what happens when neither of us will let it go? This is my point.

And you're not? Perhaps you need to look in the mirror.

I am the mother of four children, three of them grown (and one little caboose baby who is on prednisone at the moment.) I know obnoxious and difficult when I see it, and I"ve seen a lot of it!! Yesterday, you sounded like a 12-year-old who's backed into a corner, and has neither the wisdom to talk your way out, nor the maturity to give in. Today you sound like an 8-year-old who is reduced to repeating the same tired phrase over and over again, without any consideration of the reality of the situation. The only question remaining is whether you can maintain that level, or if you'll sink further still.

Moderators, it's time to close this thread, preferably before OS gets the last word!!