Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

I disagree. The timer may not be expected to be perfect, but if we're correcting the timer error, we need to let that bucket stand.

That's just it, though - we're only correcting the timer's error.

The elimination of "lag time" means that we can go back and put time on the clock (if we have definite knowledge, of course); it does not mean that any of the rules regarding live ball/dead ball have changed.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by sj

I emailed the guy in charge of the site and here is the response in part...

******

This is not my personal interpretation. This is an official interpretation from the NFHS. Perhaps when they think all this through, they may change it for next season. However, for now this is it.

..... This play came up during a national conference call in early November for high school rules and changes. As you might imagine, there was considerable discussion. The play was reviewed at the highest levels of the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee and the approved interpretation is the answer on our (www.district3hoops.com/rules/thisweek.htm) web site. The rule reference is Rule 5, Section 10 which is where "lag time" was removed.

*************

But it doesn't seem to be anywhere on the NF website or in the books.

No offense to the fine folks of District 3, but I'm waiting until I see this on the NFHS website or in an e-mail from my local assignor.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

If the foul occurs at 0.4, the clock should stop at 0.4. Once the clock is stopped (or should have stopped), the amount of time it takes to complete the try is not an issue.

Yabut....you don't KNOW that the foul occurred at 0.4. You really don't have a clue when the foul actually occurred. Nobody does. That's why you can't correct anything. That's slso the whole point to date.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yabut....you don't KNOW that the foul occurred at 0.4. You really don't have a clue when the foul actually occurred. Nobody does. That's why you can't correct anything. That's slso the whole point to date.

You know it occurred while time was still on the clock.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

1) #1 & #2, the horn didn't sound legally and time didn't legally expire. While we can't correct the time if we don't know how much, that doesn't automatically kill the shot. If what you were saying were true, the timer could push the horn button with 0.5 seconds left to kill a last second shot by the opponents....if the sounding of the horn is what kills the shot.

2) The horn and time expiring only kill the shot when they occur legally.

1) Give me a rules citation that states the horn sopunded illegally. And what do you mean "if the horn is what kills the clock"? I've given the rules citations that say exactly that numerous times to date in this thread.

2) I agree. And so far, nobody has been able to cite any RULE that says that horn and time expired illegally. That's exactly why you have to kill the shot.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

That's just it, though - we're only correcting the timer's error.

The elimination of "lag time" means that we can go back and put time on the clock (if we have definite knowledge, of course); it does not mean that any of the rules regarding live ball/dead ball have changed.

So, are you saying that if you know how much time to put on, you'll put the time on and disallow the basket?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You know it occurred while time was still on the clock.

Right, Snaqs, I agree with that too. But that doesn't mean that you can do anything about it. You can't unfortunately, unless you know exactly how much time was left on the clock.

[deecee]

in such a close stich put .3 or .4 -- either way even nothing will change the outcome because of .1 seconds. it would be different if we had video replay to more accurately gauge the effects of .1 seconds but we do not so all we can go on is a very close estimation. I agree that the clock should stop with the whistle -- so in such a split of time you know its under 1 second and you should have an idea of whether its under .5 or not -- from there just massage it a bit

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by deecee

in such a close stich put .3 or .4 -- either way even nothing will change the outcome because of .1 seconds. it would be different if we had video replay to more accurately gauge the effects of .1 seconds but we do not so all we can go on is a very close estimation. I agree that the clock should stop with the whistle -- so in such a split of time you know its under 1 second and you should have an idea of whether its under .5 or not -- from there just massage it a bit

Not even worth a reply....

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yabut....you don't KNOW that the foul occurred at 0.4. You really don't have a clue when the foul actually occurred. Nobody does. That's why you can't correct anything. That's slso the whole point to date.

You do know that it did occur before the buzzer. If you don't know that, you don't need to be on the floor at all. How far before the buzzer shouldn't matter. The result of the shot should be the same. Whether you fix the clock or not is a different matter.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) Give me a rules citation that states the horn sopunded illegally. And what do you mean "if the horn is what kills the clock"? I've given the rules citations that say exactly that numerous times to date in this thread.

2) I agree. And so far, nobody has been able to cite any RULE that says that horn and time expired illegally. That's exactly why you have to kill the shot.

Here is the rule: 5-8

Time-out occurs and the clock, if running, shall be stopped when an official" />>>
ART. 1 . . . Signals:>>
a. A foul.

If it doesn't stop in this case, it was allowed to run illegally and the horn that resulted was also not supposed to occur. I don't have the case book with me but there is a case that says the horn doesn't stop play if it sounds at an incorrect time.


By your interpretation, it seems you'd rule the ball dead if the timer pushes the horn button with 0.5 on the clock becasue the horn sounded or if the timer accidentially reset the clock to 0 before the shot was released.

The rule can't be such that it would be an advantage for the timer to be deliberately slow in the stopping of the clock....hoping the officials don't know how much time to put on the clock. If that were allowed, a home scorer could win the game for their team by manipulating the clock.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

How far before the buzzer shouldn't matter. The result of the shot should be the same. Whether you fix the clock or not is a different matter.

The result of the shot is the same. There are no rules extant that you can use to negate rules 6-7-6&7- and EXCEPTION(c).

You still can't change the facts that the horn went before the ball was in the air and you can't put time back on the clock.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

1) I don't have the case book with me but there is a case that says the horn doesn't stop play if it sounds at an incorrect time.

2) By your interpretation, it seems you'd rule the ball dead if the timer pushes the horn button with 0.5 on the clock becasue the horn sounded or if the timer accidentially reset the clock to 0 before the shot was released.

3) The rule can't be such that it would be an advantage for the timer to be deliberately slow in the stopping of the clock....hoping the officials don't know how much time to put on the clock. If that were allowed, a home scorer could win the game for their team by manipulating the clock.

1) It doesn't matter when you look up that case play or not. That horn has got absolutely nothing to do with the horn that ends a period. If you can't put time back up on the clock, then the horn ending the period did not sound at an incorrect time. Apples and kumquats.

2) Um, no, I'm not saying anything at all except commenting on exactly what the original post stated. I haven't commented on any other different situations and I don't plan to. This one is headache enough. And....please don't try to put words into my mouth to further your argument.

3) Again, I'm not giving you or anybody else my own personal like or dislike of this situation. I'm just commenting on it from a strict rules basis.....and I'm also wondering how I'd respond if a complaint came in from the other coach who had maybe lost a game because an official counted a basket and put time back on the clock without any rules basis to do so. You tell me....how would you answer that complaint, Camron? Maybe I'm wrong philosophically, but I always thought being "fair" went both ways.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

So, are you saying that if you know how much time to put on, you'll put the time on and disallow the basket?

Yes.

For the record, I actually prefer the interpretation put forth on the district 3 website, but I believe that it is not supported by rule.

[just another ref]

Perhaps my favorite part of all the books is on page 10 in the rulebook.
The Intent and Purpose of the Rules. Among other things, it says ".....to know the intent and purpose of a rule so that it may be intelligently applied in each play situation."
I personally do not believe that 5-10-1 was written with the intent of chasing down tenths of a second, not even in a game ending situation.
Sports officiating is, and for the forseeable future will be, subject to the human element. (good thing, or we're all out of a job) The whistle blows, the timer hears it, the thumb flips a switch. How long does all this take?
I have no idea. But this is the normal sequence of events. This is the way it is supposed to be. The high school game as we know it is not designed in such a way that the clock stops instantaneously with the whistle.

5-10-1: The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer.......

Anything that involves .4 tenths of a seconds, (an arbitrary amount that was mentioned earlier) is not obvious. There was a foul on a try, but time expired before the release. So be it. Shoot the free throws. The basket doesn't count.

Nothing was "permitted to develop which may lead to placing a player at a disadvantage not intended by a rule."**


**The Intent and Purpose of the Rules (again)