Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Not covered in the rulebook?

How many freaking times do I have to cite the APPLICABLE rules to you?

Rule 5-10-1, Rule 6-7-6, Rule 6-7-7, Rule 6-7EXCEPTION(c)

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

QED me up a rules citation that will back your supposition up and negate the citations that I gave.

QED's don't mean squat unless they have rules backing. There was no rules backing for the answer posted on the district3hoops site. It's that simple.

1. 5-10-1 does not apply here, because there is no definite knowlege to correct the count. Therefore if the shot counts and there are to be free throws, the clock would be set to 0, and the lane cleared. do we agree on this much?

2. 6-7-6 does not apply, since time has not expired. The timer has sounded the horn in error. Time does not expire when the horn is sounded erroneously with one minute left, why would it expire when the horn is sounded in error with an undetermined amount of time left?

3. 6-7-7 A foul other than player or team control has occured, so we review the exceptions

4. Since time has not expired, the conditions in exception c are met, so the basket counts and the free throws should be awarded.

"c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight."

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

It doesn't matter how long it takes to release the shot. Blowing my whistle should stop the clock. If the clock stops as it is supposed to, the horn doesn't go off until some time after the free throw.

Yabut....same question....if you blow your whistle with 0.4 seconds on the clock just after the shooter gathered the ball, are you completely, 100% sure that the shooter now has sufficient time to fully complete their shooting motion and get the ball in the air before that 0.4 seconds ended? And you don't know for sure whether it was 1.4 seconds or 0.4 seconds or even 0.1 seconds, do you? So....how can you be so sure the ball actually would be in the air if the timer stopped the clock immediately on your whistle?

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yabut....same question....if you blow your whistle with 0.4 seconds on the clock just after the shooter gathered the ball, are you completely, 100% sure that the shooter now has sufficient time to fully complete their shooting motion and get the ball in the air before that 0.4 seconds ended? And you don't know for sure whether it was 1.4 seconds or 0.4 seconds or even 0.1 seconds, do you? So....how can you be so sure the ball actually would be in the air if the timer stopped the clock immediately on your whistle?

If I blow my whistle at .1 second, the clock should stop on the whistle; not immediately after. If I'm looking at the clock as the whistle sounds, I put what was there when the whistle sounded, not immediately after. There is no longer lag time.
Therefore, if my whistle blows before the horn; I've got definite knowledge that time should not have expired before the shot was released.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by biz

JR why is it so hard to believe that that the official would know that "there was...say...0.4 seconds left"? It seems to me you could easily have a case where the L has the foul and the T looks at the clock after the whistle and sees a specific time on the clock, which would constitute definite knowledge.

[/B]

Um yeah, and your point is?

If you have definite knowledge, you can put time back on the clock, by rule. In the case that we're discussing though, the officials did not have definite knowledge. That means that they can't put time back on the clock, also by the same rule.

You're bringing a completely different situation into play now.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

If I blow my whistle at .1 second, the clock should stop on the whistle; not immediately after. If I'm looking at the clock as the whistle sounds, I put what was there when the whistle sounded, not immediately after. There is no longer lag time.
Therefore, if my whistle blows before the horn; I've got definite knowledge that time should not have expired before the shot was released.

Are you really telling me that a player can be fouled just as he picked the ball up, and that player could then go on and finish the rest of his shooting motion and get the ball in the air- all within 0.1 seconds?

That's ridiculous, Snaqs. There's a time lag between the foul on the shooter and the subsequent release of the shot. And that time lag could be a helluva lot longer than 0.1 or 0.4 seconds.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Are you really telling me that a player can be fouled just as he picked the ball up, and that player could then go on and finish the rest of his shooting motion and get the ball in the air- all within 0.1 seconds?

That's ridiculous, Snaqs. There's a time lag between the foul on the shooter and the subsequent release of the shot. And that time lag could be a helluva lot longer than 0.1 or 0.4 seconds.

You're right. In a normal shot, the time between the start of the motion and the release of the shot is bound to be more than .4 seconds. And in most cases, that time will elapse off the clock, and in such case a last second shot may not count because he couldn't release it on time. If he's fouled, however, the clock stops and he's allowed to continue his motion with a stopped clock.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

1. 5-10-1 does not apply here, because there is no definite knowlege to correct the count. Therefore if the shot counts and there are to be free throws, the clock would be set to 0, and the lane cleared. do we agree on this much?

2. 6-7-6 does not apply, since time has not expired. The timer has sounded the horn in error. Time does not expire when the horn is sounded erroneously with one minute left, why would it expire when the horn is sounded in error with an undetermined amount of time left?

3. 6-7-7 A foul other than player or team control has occured, so we review the exceptions

4. Since time has not expired, the conditions in exception c are met, so the basket counts and the free throws should be awarded.

"c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight."

1) No. 5-10-1 DOES apply because it says you can't put ANYTHING back on the clock unless you know EXACTLY how much TIME to put on the clock. You also can't count a shot that wasn't in the air when the horn went.

2) Cite a rule telling me why 6-7-6 doesn't apply? According to the original post, time DID expire before the ball was in the air.

3) OK...let's review.

4) Um, the original post said that time did expire though before the ball was in the air, which is why (c) is applicable.

Again, you have NO rules backing to do what you want to do.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

You're right. In a normal shot, the time between the start of the motion and the release of the shot is bound to be more than .4 seconds. And in most cases, that time will elapse off the clock, and in such case a last second shot may not count because he couldn't release it on time. If he's fouled, however, the clock stops and he's allowed to continue his motion with a stopped clock.

Agree, in all cases except thisvery particular one. In this one though, if you can't say the the clock stopped exactly at 0.4 seconds or some other completely accurate time, then you don't have the rules backing to go back and set the clock at any time before the horn.

Believe me, if anybody could convince me otherwise, I'd surrender in a NY minute. I'm growing old(er) discussing this one.

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

4) Um, the original post said that time did expire though before the ball was in the air, which is why (c) is applicable.

Again, you have NO rules backing to do what you want to do.

You keep saying that time expired. Time did not expire. The whistle sounded, then the horn went off.

With the elimination of the lag time, this means the clock should have been stopped before the horn sounded. The fact that is was not stopped makes this a timer's error.

This is the point of the whole article. Otherwise the elimination of the lag time makes no sense.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

I'm growing old(er) discussing this one.

Me, too. And I'm still young enough to cling to my youth.

I'm going to bring this up at the meeting tonight and get some local direction.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

You keep saying that time expired. Time did not expire. The whistle sounded, then the horn went off.

With the elimination of the lag time, this means the clock should have been stopped before the horn sounded. The fact that is was not stopped makes this a timer's error.

This is the point of the whole article. Otherwise the elimination of the lag time makes no sense.

Time didn't expire but the horn went off?

OOOOOOOOOK.....

Yup, and it's a timers error that ISN'T correctable under any rule that I know of. That means that the horn went off before the ball was in the air.

Again, if you know any rule(s) that will negate that, please cite it/them.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jimgolf

You keep saying that time expired. Time did not expire. The whistle sounded, then the horn went off.

With the elimination of the lag time, this means the clock should have been stopped before the horn sounded. The fact that is was not stopped makes this a timer's error.

This is the point of the whole article. Otherwise the elimination of the lag time makes no sense.

(Ok JR, let me try...you go have a donut or somethin'.)

The "elimination of lag time" is only applicable if you have "definite information relative to the time involved". Definite information has to do with the specific amount of time, not just the fact that you "definitely" know the whistle blew before the horn sounded.

Realistically, I'm probably not going to have a view of clock at the exact moment I blow that whistle - my focus will be on those players. I'm going to need to rely on my partners to give me that information. If one of them comes to me and tells me "There was .4 on the clock when your whistle blew", then great, we can add that back on the clock. But we cannot add back time because we "thought" there was .4 left, or because "there should've been" .4 left. That's not definitive information. See the difference?

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yabut....same question....if you blow your whistle with 0.4 seconds on the clock just after the shooter gathered the ball, are you completely, 100% sure that the shooter now has sufficient time to fully complete their shooting motion and get the ball in the air before that 0.4 seconds ended? And you don't know for sure whether it was 1.4 seconds or 0.4 seconds or even 0.1 seconds, do you? So....how can you be so sure the ball actually would be in the air if the timer stopped the clock immediately on your whistle?

It is irrelevant. He could take 20 seconds to release the shot (if he could maintain continuous motion that long). If the foul occurs at 0.4, the clock should stop at 0.4. Once the clock is stopped (or should have stopped), the amount of time it takes to complete the try is not an issue.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) No. 5-10-1 DOES apply because it says you can't put ANYTHING back on the clock unless you know EXACTLY how much TIME to put on the clock. You also can't count a shot that wasn't in the air when the horn went.

2) Cite a rule telling me why 6-7-6 doesn't apply? According to the original post, time DID expire before the ball was in the air.

3) OK...let's review.

4) Um, the original post said that time did expire though before the ball was in the air, which is why (c) is applicable.

Again, you have NO rules backing to do what you want to do.

#1 & #2, the horn didn't sound legally and time didn't legally expire. While we can't correct the time if we don't know how much, that doesn't automatically kill the shot. If what you were saying were true, the timer could push the horn button with 0.5 seconds left to kill a last second shot by the opponents....if the sounding of the horn is what kills the shot.

The horn and time expiring only kill the shot when they occur legally.

[Grail]

Let's try this situation:

A1 dribbling past half court jumps as the clock is at 1.2, is fouled at 1.1 hangs in the air (can you hang for 1.1? at least in this play you can) till the clock says 0:00.0 and the horn sounds. He/she than release the shot and it goes in.

Under the lag time rule of last year, we can put 1.1 back on the clock, as it didn't stop in the required 1 second. Is the arguement that the shot can't count because the horn sounded to end the period? I don't think that would have been the old interpretation. The horn sounding was due to a timing error. Shot counts, shoot 1 free throw.

Under the new rule, we can put 1.1 back on the clock, assuming we saw the clock. Can we still argue that the shot doesn't count because the horn sounded. Again, I don't think that interpretation is accurate as the horn is sounding due to a timing error. Thus the shot counts, shoot 1 free throw.

Assuming no arguments to the above (a HUGE assumption), we now get to this play. I don't have the answer, but I am fairly confident that IF we are putting time back on the clock, the shot counts. It is not relevant if he/she could complete the motion is .4 or 1.1 seconds. The clock should stop, time has not expired, the horn is to be ignored.