Interesting Foul Situation

[Cornellref]

NFHS: A1 drives by defender B1 into the lane and is pushed from behind by B1 as he attempts a shot. The Trail raises his arm and whistles for a pushing foul on B1. A1 is in the act of shooting so there is continuation. However, the push causes A1 to go harder toward the basket. A1 charges into B2 right after the shot is released. The lead raises his arm and whistles, since he has a player control foul on A1, and makes eye contact with the Trail. The ball goes in. Assume that the Lead did not see the push by B1. What is the correct procedure?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Cornellref
NFHS: A1 drives by defender B1 into the lane and is pushed from behind by B1 as he attempts a shot. The Trail raises his arm and whistles for a pushing foul on B1. A1 is in the act of shooting so there is continuation. However, the push causes A1 to go harder toward the basket. A1 charges into B2 right after the shot is released. The lead raises his arm and whistles, since he has a player control foul on A1, and makes eye contact with the Trail. The ball goes in. Assume that the Lead did not see the push by B1. What is the correct procedure?

The trail and the lead have to get together and decide whether the push by B1 caused the charge by A1.
1)If they decide that the push caused the charge,the lead should cancel his call.You end up with a foul on B1,count the basket,and A1 gets 1 shot.
2)If they decide that the push didn't cause the charge,then when the charge occurs,the ball will become dead immediately,and the shot won't count.B1 and A1 will both be charged with fouls,but A1 will now get 2 FT's for being fouled in the act of shooting.
3)If the officials can't decide if the push called the charge,both calls stand and you go to #2 above.

[Edited by Jurassic Referee on Mar 25th, 2003 at 03:08 AM]

[ChuckElias]

If you're going to assess both fouls, this becomes a double foul. Since it's a double foul, A1's foul is NOT a player control foul. Therefore, if the shot was released before the contact, you would count the basket if it goes. 4.19.7C

[Jurassic Referee]

Not applicable,my little friend. Casebook play 4.19.7C refers to B1 committing the foul,and also being charged by A1. In Cornellref's case B1 commits the foul,and then A1 charges B2-i.e. 2 different defensive players. The applicable casbook play is 4.19.6A. That one is just about word-for-word with CR's sitch.

[canuckrefguy]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
If you're going to assess both fouls, this becomes a double foul. Since it's a double foul, A1's foul is NOT a player control foul. Therefore, if the shot was released before the contact, you would count the basket if it goes. 4.19.7C

If we're going to call both fouls isn't this a "false multiple" foul?

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
2)If they decide that the push didn't cause the charge,they now gotta figure out if the ball went in or not before the lead called the player control foul.If it did,you ignore the dead ball contact(charge) unless it is unsporting,intentional,flagrant,etc.If the ball hasn't gone in when the charge occurs,the ball will become dead immediately,and the shot won't count. A1 will now get 2 FT's for being fouled in the act of shooting.

Huh?

If the PC foul is called, the basket doesn't count, regardless of when the PC foul occurred.

If the ball has been released, and the shooter is not airborne, it can't be a PC foul.

If the shooter is airborne and commits the PC foul, it doesn't matter whether the ball is dead or not.

Originally posted by canuckrefguy
If we're going to call both fouls isn't this a "false multiple" foul?

No, it's a false double foul. A multiple foul or false multiple foul are committed by the same team.

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee
In Cornellref's case B1 commits the foul,and then A1 charges B2-i.e. 2 different defensive players.

Indeedly-doodly. (Darn it. Not one "Ned Flanders" gif!) I was still brain-locked on the one-on-one situation.

[canuckrefguy]

Thanks guys, mis-spoke myself there.

I think though, it's pretty clear the push by B1 caused the whole mess so:

get with your partner
count the hoop
pushing foul on B1
A1 gets one FT
tough luck for B2

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by ChuckElias
Darn it. Not one "Ned Flanders" gif!

How's this?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Huh?

If the PC foul is called, the basket doesn't count, regardless of when the PC foul occurred.

If the ball has been released, and the shooter is not airborne, it can't be a PC foul.

If the shooter is airborne and commits the PC foul, it doesn't matter whether the ball is dead or not.

Agree. For some reason,R4-19-1NOTE about contact after the ball is dead was running through my mind.Obviously,it was running through wrong.The proper wording is above,and I went back and edited my post to correct it.

Chuck,please note that I admitted my mistake BEFORE I edited my post!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally posted by Mark Padgett

How's this?

[JugglingReferee]

Originally posted by canuckrefguy

If we're going to call both fouls isn't this a "false multiple" foul?

This is a false double foul... and I had it once!

(Not quite this same sitch.)

Mike