Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

[Jimgolf]

Originally Posted by just another ref

5-10-1: The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer.......

Anything that involves .4 tenths of a seconds, (an arbitrary amount that was mentioned earlier) is not obvious.

Forget tenths of seconds. It is obvious to the official that the whistle was blown prior to the clock expiring. It could have been ten seconds before, or .4 seconds before, but either way it is obvious unless we have a deaf official.

[JTRICE]

[QUOTE=JTRICE]http://www.district3hoops.com/index....s/thisweek.htm


I have read all this discussion on this situation. Just another note that the District 3 director said that this is not his interpretation but a NFHS interpretation. So.... expect to see it soon on the NFHS web site.

Secondly, if you look at the District 3 web site again you will notice that it DOES say what to do if the three officials are not sure how much time to put back on the clock but that they are sure it was foul-buzzer-shot. What you are supposed to do (according to NFHS) is to count the basket and shoot the foul shot with noone lined up on the lane.

[Jurassic Referee]

[QUOTE=JTRICE]

Originally Posted by JTRICE

http://www.district3hoops.com/index....s/thisweek.htm


I have read all this discussion on this situation. Just another note that the District 3 director said that this is not his interpretation but a NFHS interpretation. So.... expect to see it soon on the NFHS web site.

Secondly, if you look at the District 3 web site again you will notice that it DOES say what to do if the three officials are not sure how much time to put back on the clock but that they are sure it was foul-buzzer-shot. What you are supposed to do (according to NFHS) is to count the basket and shoot the foul shot with noone lined up on the lane.

"Foul shot"- singular. Iow, they are still saying to count the basket even though the ball wasn't in the air when the horn went. Again, that ruling goes directly against the language of rule 6-7-7&EXCEPTION(c).

I think that I'll wait until I see a case play posted on the NFHS website stating that. At that time, I will concede that I am wrong. Until that time, I still don't believe that there is any rules backing extant to count the basket, and I certainly haven't seen any rules backing posted here to date that would cause me to re-think my position.

[just another ref]

[QUOTE=Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by JTRICE

...... they are still saying to count the basket even though the ball wasn't in the air when the horn went.

I think that I'll wait until I see a case play posted on the NFHS website stating that. At that time, I will concede that I am wrong.

I'm with you on this one, JR. I see no need to concede that we are wrong no matter what comes down in the future. This is a good and logical argument that everyone makes about what is reasonable and how is should be and "I know the whistle came before the horn," and all the rest. But, for the time being, as you have so vigorously pointed out,
it is not supported by rule.

By the way, has anybody ever seen this actually happen?
Try starts...foul....buzzer....release. I have not.

[Grail]

I had this play in a Jr. High game earlier this year. The only exception is that the shot didn't go in. It made everything easy. Foul and whistle definitely beat the buzzer, but not by much. We didn't add any time as neither my partner nor I had a chance to OBSERVE the clock for definite knowledge. My best guess, .1 could have been put back on the clock. Being that it was a guess, we didn't put any time up, and we shot 2 free throws.

[btaylor64]

Originally Posted by Grail

I had this play in a Jr. High game earlier this year. The only exception is that the shot didn't go in. It made everything easy. Foul and whistle definitely beat the buzzer, but not by much. We didn't add any time as neither my partner nor I had a chance to OBSERVE the clock for definite knowledge. My best guess, .1 could have been put back on the clock. Being that it was a guess, we didn't put any time up, and we shot 2 free throws.

Same exact thing happened to me as well this year.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by btaylor64

Same exact thing happened to me as well this year.

In a D1 or a pro game?

Just wondering if the rules were the same in both of the levels that you're working.

[Mark Dexter]

In looking up a question Juulie had, I came across this gem:

6.7 Situation C: Under what circumstances does the ball remain live when a foul occurs just prior to the ball being in flight during a try or tap?

Ruling: The ball would ordinarily become dead at once, but it remains live if the foul is by the defense, and this foul occurs after A1 has started the try or tap for goal and time does not expire before the ball is in flight. The foul by the defense may be personal or technical and the exception to the rule applies to field goal tries and taps and free-throw tries. (4-11; 4-41-1)

[Grail]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

In looking up a question Juulie had, I came across this gem:

6.7 Situation C: Under what circumstances does the ball remain live when a foul occurs just prior to the ball being in flight during a try or tap?

Ruling: The ball would ordinarily become dead at once, but it remains live if the foul is by the defense, and this foul occurs after A1 has started the try or tap for goal and time does not expire before the ball is in flight. The foul by the defense may be personal or technical and the exception to the rule applies to field goal tries and taps and free-throw tries. (4-11; 4-41-1)

So we return to the question, "Did time expire?" If you know the whistle came first, you know you have a timing error. Thus time did not expire. What to do now is the next question. If you know how much time should be back on the clock, it's easy. If not, things get confusing.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Grail

So we return to the question, "Did time expire?" If you know the whistle came first, you know you have a timing error. Thus time did not expire. What to do now is the next question. If you know how much time should be back on the clock, it's easy. If not, things get confusing.

Yes, time did expire, and I believe that this case play indicates as such.

The casebook authors clearly realized that, sometimes, the clock cannot be stopped. If they expected the clock to be stopped perfectly here, then they would not have included the part about time expiring because it would be moot!

Frankly, this case has nothing to do with whether lag time has been changed or whether the timer made a mistake. The ball must leave the hand before the horn signalling the end of the period sounds. Period.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

In looking up a question Juulie had, I came across this gem:

6.7 Situation C: Under what circumstances does the ball remain live when a foul occurs just prior to the ball being in flight during a try or tap?

Ruling: The ball would ordinarily become dead at once, but it remains live if the foul is by the defense, and this foul occurs after A1 has started the try or tap for goal and time does not expire before the ball is in flight. The foul by the defense may be personal or technical and the exception to the rule applies to field goal tries and taps and free-throw tries. (4-11; 4-41-1)

The only way this makes sense with the removal of lag time is if you have the following order of events:
A1 begins habitual motion for shot.
Foul by B1.
Buzzer.
Whistle and shot released in either order.

If the whistle comes before the buzzer, then time has not expired before the release.

If the whistle comes after the buzzer, then cancel the basket and shoot two (or three) free throws.

I came very close to seeing this in a ms game a week ago. The shot was released before the horn, though; but not by much. It went in.

[Grail]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Yes, time did expire, and I believe that this case play indicates as such.

The casebook authors clearly realized that, sometimes, the clock cannot be stopped. If they expected the clock to be stopped perfectly here, then they would not have included the part about time expiring because it would be moot!

Frankly, this case has nothing to do with whether lag time has been changed or whether the timer made a mistake. The ball must leave the hand before the horn signalling the end of the period sounds. Period.

Did you read my other play, player fouled at 1.1, hangs through the buzzer and than releases? Would you still feel that time expired? Even under the old lag time rule? I wouldn't. This is a timing error. I understand the play in the casebook may not agree, but it appears to be in contradiction to the new rule. To this official's eyes, it seems they forgot to check the case book when them implemented the new rule.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Grail

Did you read my other play, player fouled at 1.1, hangs through the buzzer and than releases? Would you still feel that time expired? Even under the old lag time rule? I wouldn't. This is a timing error. I understand the play in the casebook may not agree, but it appears to be in contradiction to the new rule. To this official's eyes, it seems they forgot to check the case book when them implemented the new rule.

Absolutely - whether a quick release, or whether the player flies through the air via some anti-gravity device (shucks - even if for 11.1 seconds), the ball must be released before the horn sounds in order to count.

As to whether or not the case book seems to disagree with the rules, maybe it does (EDIT: the casebook can't actually contradict the rules - we go by what the casebook says). However (to paraphrase Rummy), we ref the games with the casebook we have, not with the casebook we might want.

[Mark Dexter]

A1 has the ball and begins his habitual motion preceeding his shot. B1 fouls A1 and the whistle is sounded. A1 then travels, releases the ball, and it successfully goes through the hoop.

What's your call?

[zakman2005000]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Yes.

For the record, I actually prefer the interpretation put forth on the district 3 website, but I believe that it is not supported by rule.

Mark, I disagree that its not supported by rule(w/ a reservation, I'm assuming that all rule sections quoted by others are accurate, no books here at work)


6-7 DEAD BALL "The ball becomes dead or remains dead when:
Art. 6 ... Time expires for a quarter or extra period (see exception a below)
Art. 7 ... A foul, other than player- or team-control occurs (see exceptions a,b,c below)

EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborn shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.
b. Article 5 or 7 occurs while a try for a free throw is in flight.
c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in glight. The trying motion may include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when throwing the ball at his/her basket."

The here is clearly stating that if a foul occurs, whistle, then buzzer, then shot that the ball will be considered a dead ball. Penalize the foul, but you cannot count the basket. The only exception to this would be 5-10-1 where the official has definite knowledge of the time. That states:

"The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock."


To me, the bolded sections state that if we put time back on the clock because of definite knowledge, then time has not expired. Therefore, if time has not expired, then we must count the basket even if it was released after the horn.