Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

[just another ref]

I'm a little concerned about all this mention of looking at the clock and noting the time, in tenths no less, when the whistle blows on a last-second shot attempt. I hope that nobody goes into this scenario so intent on noting the time that he/she misses A1 doing a Chuck Norris move on B1 as he tries to tip one in at the buzzer.

[Ref in PA]

JR has it right. It is in the rule book in plain black and white.

For those who do not want to read the book

6-7 DEAD BALL "The ball becomes dead or remains dead when:
Art. 6 ... Time expires for a quarter or extra period (see exception a below)
Art. 7 ... A foul, other than player- or team-control occurs (see exceptions a,b,c below)

EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborn shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.
b. Article 5 or 7 occurs while a try for a free throw is in flight.
c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in glight. The trying motion may include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when throwing the ball at his/her basket."

The here is clearly stating that if a foul occurs, whistle, then buzzer, then shot that the ball will be considered a dead ball. Penalize the foul, but you cannot count the basket. The only exception to this would be 5-10-1 where the official has definite knowledge of the time. That states:

"The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock."

In this case the official is saying the quarter did not end, time is being place back on the clock, therefore a made basket after the horn (provided it was continuous motion) would be counted. Without that exact knowledge of the time, a made basket is waived off, and the FTs will end the period.

[biz]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

I have to disagree with play #2. If I get that situation, I'm cancelling the basket, putting 0.3 on the clock, then having A1 shoot 2 free-throws. Coach won't like it, but that's what's written in the rulebook, by my interpretation.

I'm confused Mark. If you have definite knowledge that there was .3 seconds remaining in the game when the foul occurred why then are you cancelling the basket?

5-10 seems to say that the quarter has not ended if you have definite knowledge of the time remaining therefore you can count the goal, award the free throw and finish the game.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by biz

I'm confused Mark. If you have definite knowledge that there was .3 seconds remaining in the game when the foul occurred why then are you cancelling the basket?

5-10 seems to say that the quarter has not ended if you have definite knowledge of the time remaining therefore you can count the goal, award the free throw and finish the game.

The horn sounding made the ball dead.

[biz]

but by putting time back on the clock we're saying the horn sounding is a timer error aren't we?

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by biz

but by putting time back on the clock we're saying the horn sounding is a timer error aren't we?

I don't think so. The exception I referenced before (5-6-2 Exception 3) is pretty clear that the timer is not expected to be perfect in this situation.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

I don't think so. The exception I referenced before (5-6-2 Exception 3) is pretty clear that the timer is not expected to be perfect in this situation.

I disagree. The timer may not be expected to be perfect, but if we're correcting the timer error, we need to let that bucket stand.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Ref in PA

EXCEPTION: The ball does not become dead until the try or tap ends, or until the airborn shooter returns to the floor, when:
a. Article 5, 6, or 7 occurs while a try or tap for a field goal is in flight.
b. Article 5 or 7 occurs while a try for a free throw is in flight.
c. Article 7 occurs by any opponent of a player who has started a try or tap for goal (is in the act of shooting) before the foul occurred, provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight. The trying motion must be continuous and begins after the ball comes to rest in the player's hand(s) on a try or touches the hand(s) on a tap, and is completed when the ball is clearly in glight. The trying motion may include arm, foot or body movements used by the player when throwing the ball at his/her basket."

The here is clearly stating that if a foul occurs, whistle, then buzzer, then shot that the ball will be considered a dead ball. Penalize the foul, but you cannot count the basket. The only exception to this would be 5-10-1 where the official has definite knowledge of the time. That states:

"The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer to start or stop the clock properly only when he/she has definite information to the time involved. The exact time observed by the official may be placed on the clock."

In this case the official is saying the quarter did not end, time is being place back on the clock, therefore a made basket after the horn (provided it was continuous motion) would be counted. Without that exact knowledge of the time, a made basket is waived off, and the FTs will end the period.

Okay, I don't think it clearly states what you say it does. If you have a player who starts his motion, the buzzer goes, the foul occurs, and the shot releases; then you have a clear instance where time expired before the shot was released.
"The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer." This, with the removal of lag time, means if you know for a fact that the shot was released before the horn should have gone off, you should count the basket. If you don't know the exact time; all you can do is count the basket and shoot the shot, if it will make a difference, with the lane cleared.
When we had lag time, it made sense to allow time to expire. Now that the fed is allowing us to correct even tiny timer errors....

[Ref in PA]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Okay, I don't think it clearly states what you say it does. If you have a player who starts his motion, the buzzer goes, the foul occurs, and the shot releases; then you have a clear instance where time expired before the shot was released.
"The referee may correct an obvious mistake by the timer." This, with the removal of lag time, means if you know for a fact that the shot was released before the horn should have gone off, you should count the basket. If you don't know the exact time; all you can do is count the basket and shoot the shot, if it will make a difference, with the lane cleared.
When we had lag time, it made sense to allow time to expire. Now that the fed is allowing us to correct even tiny timer errors....

6-7-7 says a ball becomes dead on a foul. The exception c, associated with article 7 says that if the foul is by an opponent, the ball will remain live if the player has started his/her motion for a shot. It further states that the shot MUST be released before the buzzer (or else it is dead).

The rule is explicitly stating not to count the bucket in the event of foul, whistle, buzzer, made hoop. Now comes the lag time rule change. Does this mean we ignore what is explicitly stated for the interpretations of our imaginations? I will agree this explicit rule does not seem to jive with the rule change regarding lag time and putting time back on the clock and that the shot must be part of the period by reason of logic and extension of the lag rule. So, does this case now become one for the committee to clarify? I hope they do. Where is the email address to send them these scenarios?

[Adam]

One more thing to add, while the ball remains live after this foul (due to the fact that fouled player is in the act of shooting), the clock is still supposed to stop. the fact is, the clock should have stopped, and removing lag time gives us the backing to enforce this.
I agree, I'd like a clarification on whether the committee intended this.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

This, with the removal of lag time, means if you know for a fact that the shot was released before the horn should have gone off, you should count the basket. If you don't know the exact time; all you can do is count the basket and shoot the shot, if it will make a difference, with the lane cleared.

Yabut....hw do you know for a fact that the shot would have been released before the horn should have gone off? If there was...say....0.4 seconds left on the clock when you blew your whistle, can you honestly say that the shooter would have definitely finished his shooting motion and got the ball airborne within that 0.4 seconds? And if you don't know exactly how much time was on the clock when you blew your whistle, how can you really "know for a fact" that the ball would have been in the air before the buzzer anyway?

The bottom line is that, if you don't know exactly how much time was left in the period when you blew your whistle and you can't also accurately keep track of the time remaining from that whistle to the end of the period to be 100% sure that the ball was in the air before the horn, then you are doing nothing but guessing from the time your whistle went off. And, unless you can find me a rule somewhere that says you're allowed to guess, then you have to go with the facts imo. And the only facts that you do know are that you don't know how much time to accurately put back on the clock and the ball was not in the air when the horn went to end the period. Then.....you just have to apply existing rules to the facts that you do possess.

[biz]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yabut....hw do you know for a fact that the shot would have been released before the horn should have gone off? If there was...say....0.4 seconds left on the clock when you blew your whistle, can you honestly say that the shooter would have definitely finished his shooting motion and got the ball airborne within that 0.4 seconds? And if you don't know exactly how much time was on the clock when you blew your whistle, how can you really "know for a fact" that the ball would have been in the air before the buzzer anyway?

JR why is it so hard to believe that that the official would know that "there was...say...0.4 seconds left"? It seems to me you could easily have a case where the L has the foul and the T looks at the clock after the whistle and sees a specific time on the clock, which would constitute definite knowledge.

Furthermore why does the official need to know that the shot would have been off before the buzzer? I agree with the earlier post that the removal of lag time has given the official (with definite knowledge) the ability to correct timer error no matter how minute. Therefore the game clock should be theoretically stopped at 0.4, or whatever time the official saw, and the continuation of the normal shooting motion would be allowed to continue as if the clock had stopped correctly. As far as 6-7-7c and the note about the horn, I believe that we should interpret this as a horn sounding correctly.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yabut....hw do you know for a fact that the shot would have been released before the horn should have gone off? If there was...say....0.4 seconds left on the clock when you blew your whistle, can you honestly say that the shooter would have definitely finished his shooting motion and got the ball airborne within that 0.4 seconds? And if you don't know exactly how much time was on the clock when you blew your whistle, how can you really "know for a fact" that the ball would have been in the air before the buzzer anyway?

The bottom line is that, if you don't know exactly how much time was left in the period when you blew your whistle and you can't also accurately keep track of the time remaining from that whistle to the end of the period to be 100% sure that the ball was in the air before the horn, then you are doing nothing but guessing from the time your whistle went off. And, unless you can find me a rule somewhere that says you're allowed to guess, then you have to go with the facts imo. And the only facts that you do know are that you don't know how much time to accurately put back on the clock and the ball was not in the air when the horn went to end the period. Then.....you just have to apply existing rules to the facts that you do possess.

You are truely wise beyond your years.

You must be a Red Sox fan.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yabut....hw do you know for a fact that the shot would have been released before the horn should have gone off? If there was...say....0.4 seconds left on the clock when you blew your whistle, can you honestly say that the shooter would have definitely finished his shooting motion and got the ball airborne within that 0.4 seconds? And if you don't know exactly how much time was on the clock when you blew your whistle, how can you really "know for a fact" that the ball would have been in the air before the buzzer anyway?

The bottom line is that, if you don't know exactly how much time was left in the period when you blew your whistle and you can't also accurately keep track of the time remaining from that whistle to the end of the period to be 100% sure that the ball was in the air before the horn, then you are doing nothing but guessing from the time your whistle went off. And, unless you can find me a rule somewhere that says you're allowed to guess, then you have to go with the facts imo. And the only facts that you do know are that you don't know how much time to accurately put back on the clock and the ball was not in the air when the horn went to end the period. Then.....you just have to apply existing rules to the facts that you do possess.

It doesn't matter how long it takes to release the shot. Blowing my whistle should stop the clock. If the clock stops as it is supposed to, the horn doesn't go off until some time after the free throw.

[sj]

I emailed the guy in charge of the site and here is the response in part...

******

This is not my personal interpretation. This is an official interpretation from the NFHS. Perhaps when they think all this through, they may change it for next season. However, for now this is it.

..... This play came up during a national conference call in early November for high school rules and changes. As you might imagine, there was considerable discussion. The play was reviewed at the highest levels of the NFHS Basketball Rules Committee and the approved interpretation is the answer on our (www.district3hoops.com/rules/thisweek.htm) web site. The rule reference is Rule 5, Section 10 which is where "lag time" was removed.

*************

But it doesn't seem to be anywhere on the NF website or in the books.