Flagrant Foul ruling

[coachk]

Here's the situation:
Player A is driving to the basket and fouled in the act of shooting by Player B. Referee considers the foul to be a flagrant foul. Should Player A be awarded:

a) a total of 2 free throws and the ball?

or
b) a total of 4 free throws (i.e., 2 for the shooting foul and 2 for the flagrant foul) and the ball?

[bob jenkins]

a)

One foul, one penalty.

[tjones1]

Coach,

Were you watching an NCAA game yesterday on Fox Sports Net? I can't remember who was playing, maybe Arizona and Arizona State. Anyways, in FED, just two shots and the ball. Plus, player B is ejected.

Now in that game I was watching yesterday, it was not ruled a flagrant foul from what I could tell because the player was not ejected or removed from the game. Just another time the announcers didn't know what they were talking about. It was just an intentional foul.

[Kelvin green]

the penalty for the shot is 2 FT and the ball (plus ejection)
Never in HS ball does any one shoot more than 2 (3 if shot is behind arc) on any play.

If the shooting player had scored it would be score plus 2 and ball

Never 4 shots!

[drothamel]

Team gets two free throws and the ball out of bounds.

[drothamel]

To follow on John's story, has the NFHS ever considered adding an official signal for the flagrant foul and/or the ejection? I know a lot of fans and coaches, and have even seen some officials (unfortunately), use the intentional foul signal for a flagrant foul.

[coachk]

This actually happened in the last 30 seconds of a game I was coaching today. I was the coach of Team B and the referees awarded Player A 4 free throws and the ball. Player A made 3 of 4 and my team lost by 2 points. Immediately upon the call I told the referees that only 2 free throws should be awarded, but they were certain that their ruling was correct, so the play stood.

By the way, this was a youth recreational league playoff game that is supposed to be governed by NFHS rules.

[mick]

Originally posted by coachk
This actually happened in the last 30 seconds of a game I was coaching today. I was the coach of Team B and the referees awarded Player A 4 free throws and the ball. Player A made 3 of 4 and my team lost by 2 points. Immediately upon the call I told the referees that only 2 free throws should be awarded, but they were certain that their ruling was correct, so the play stood.

By the way, this was a youth recreational league playoff game that is supposed to be governed by NFHS rules.

CoachK,
Can you describe the foul and explain why the foul was ruled to be a flagrant foul? Was there an intent to injure your opponent?
mick

[TriggerMN]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
the penalty for the shot is 2 FT and the ball (plus ejection)
Never in HS ball does any one shoot more than 2 (3 if shot is behind arc) on any play.

If the shooting player had scored it would be score plus 2 and ball

Never 4 shots!

This is incorrect. If B1 and B2 foul 3-point shooter A1 simultaneously, and the shot is no good, A1 receives 2 free throws for each foul, hence 4 free throws.

[mick]

Originally posted by TriggerMN

This is incorrect. If B1 and B2 foul 3-point shooter A1 simultaneously, and the shot is no good, A1 receives 2 free throws for each foul, hence 4 free throws.

TriggerMN,
You'll have a tough time finding that ruling.
mick

[ChuckElias]

Originally posted by Kelvin green
the penalty for the shot is 2 FT and the ball (plus ejection)
Never in HS ball does any one shoot more than 2 (3 if shot is behind arc) on any play.

Never 4 shots!

Trigger beat me to this one, but 1 FT is awarded for each foul of a multiple foul. So if a player is fouled by 4 different opponents at the same time, he'd shoot four FTs.

[TriggerMN]

Mick-->

Did they change the rule last year? I can't find this year's rule book, but in my 2003-3004 book, on page 67, summary of penalties for all fouls, #6.

Multiple foul:

Two free throws for each foul:
Unsuccessful three-point try or tap.

2+2=4, right?

[coachk]

Mick-
My player was simply trying to prevent the other player from shooting an uncontested layup. Most of the fans (for both teams) thought it should have been ruled an intentional foul rather than flagrant. There was certainly no intent by my player to harm the other.

As I understand the rule, the only difference in the way intentional and flagrant fouls are treated is that for a flagrant foul the player is ejected. That is, the handling of the free throws and the awarding of the ball is handled exactly the same. By the way, even though it was ruled a flagrant foul, my player was NOT ejected.

K-

[mick]

Originally posted by TriggerMN
Mick-->

Did they change the rule last year? I can't find this year's rule book, but in my 2003-3004 book, on page 67, summary of penalties for all fouls, #6.

Multiple foul:

Two free throws for each foul:
Unsuccessful three-point try or tap.

2+2=4, right?

Thanks, TriggerMN,
It was me that would have had trouble finding that rule without your help.
I am in your debt.
Thanks.
mick

[mick]

Originally posted by coachk
Mick-
My player was simply trying to prevent the other player from shooting an uncontested layup. Most of the fans (for both teams) thought it should have been ruled an intentional foul rather than flagrant. There was certainly no intent by my player to harm the other.

As I understand the rule, the only difference in the way intentional and flagrant fouls are treated is that for a flagrant foul the player is ejected. That is, the handling of the free throws and the awarding of the ball is handled exactly the same. By the way, even though it was ruled a flagrant foul, my player was NOT ejected.

K-

Thanks coachk,
So, it was treated (though incorrectly) as an intentional, though called a flagrant.
Heck, if that was 16 years ago I coulda been your official for the day.
mick