Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by zakman2005000

I can't find a reference to the buzzer or horn in the applicable rule (6-7?)and I think that is where the difference of opinion is on this. I think that buzzer or horn doesn't equal expiration of time if we have definite knowledge that time hasn't expired and we put time back on the clock.

6-7 exception c: .....provided time did not expire before the ball was in flight.

5-6-2: Each quarter or extra period ends when the signal sounds indicating time has expired.

[Raymond]

I'm looking for the NFHS rulebook answer to this question, it slightly differs from the original scenario:

last second shot (one functioning scoreboard/team B leads Team A by 2 points/2-man crew (or 2-person if Juulie is working))

1) B1 smacks A1's arm
2) whistle
3) release
4) horn
5) ball enters basket
6) both officials know shot was released before horn but neither has definite knowledge of exact time

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

I'm looking for the NFHS rulebook answer to this question, it slightly differs from the original scenario:

last second shot (one functioning scoreboard/team B leads Team A by 2 points/2-man crew (or 2-person if Juulie is working))

1) B1 smacks A1's arm
2) whistle
3) release
4) horn
5) ball enters basket
6) both officials know shot was released before horn but neither has definite knowledge of exact time

Both the foul and the release came before the expiration of time, therefore you have a tie score and A1 shoots one free throw to determine whether we'll need OT or not.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Both the foul and the release came before the expiration of time, therefore you have a tie score and A1 shoots one free throw to determine whether we'll need OT or not.

And no time posted on clock, right? I'm not disagreeing, just want affirmation.

Also, any effective words that I could pass along to Team B coach as to why time is not being put back on clock but we are counting the basket?

[Kelvin green]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If the shooter is fouled with 0.2/0.3 seconds on the clock just as he's gathered the ball, are you telling me that it's the intent of the rules to allow that shooter to completely finish his shooting motion after that(step, bring his arms up, maybe double-pump and then shoot), even though that completion of the shooting motion after the foul might take a lot longer than 0.2/0.3 seconds? I can't agree with that.

Sorry, Camron, but it isn't that simplistic imo. It would be nice if it was...but it just isn't.

It is that simplistic. Fundamental basketball rules state

Rule 6-7

Ball becomes dead when time expires for the quarter. Time had not expired because whistle was before the horn. This was absolute

Ball does not become dead until try or tap ends

The defense was stupid enough to foul and stop the clock here. It gives the guy a chance to finish his motion. If they hadnt have fouled and stopped the clock the player may or may not have gotten the shot off, but since they did he gets everything else the rules allow.

Go back and reread the interpretation that was given for this play


It specifically stated that there was whistle then horn. There was no question. IT becomes a timing mistake, basket scores and free-throw is shot. The rest of the ruling is whether or not there should be time put back on the clock and if the FT has someone on the lane. If there is definite knowledge reset the clock, if not shoot the FT's and be done.

Time has not expired while the ball was in the hand. We cannot reset the clock because of no definite knowledge. These are two separate and distinct acts...and two separate rules!

I agree with Cameron on his play... There is also some common sense that has to come into play.

If there is 1:05 left in the 4th and operator hits reset instead of the horn and it now shows 8:00 to go in the fourth. I dont have definite knowledge so we have to go with the eight minutes because the scorer did not note the times of the time outs... or fouls.

This is the only paly in town. We have to be precise ad get this right

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

And no time posted on clock, right? I'm not disagreeing, just want affirmation.

Not unless you have definite knowledge.

Also, any effective words that I could pass along to Team B coach as to why time is not being put back on clock but we are counting the basket?

"Coach, pray that he misses and you get a shot at OT."

I dunno, "the shot was released before the horn sounded" seems to work for me as to why the basket was counted. For no time going on the clock, you just have to admit that neither ref saw how much time should be left. (If he complains, tell him that his team shouldn't have fouled. Of course, A might get 2 more FT's to determine whether or not you have an overtime!)

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

If the shooter is fouled with 0.2/0.3 seconds on the clock just as he's gathered the ball, are you telling me that it's the intent of the rules to allow that shooter to completely finish his shooting motion after that(step, bring his arms up, maybe double-pump and then shoot), even though that completion of the shooting motion after the foul might take a lot longer than 0.2/0.3 seconds? I can't agree with that.

Sorry, Camron, but it isn't that simplistic imo. It would be nice if it was...but it just isn't.

It sure is that simple. The defense stops the clock with the foul. That gives the shooter all the time it takes to complete the shooting motion. The fact that you've got a slow (homer) timer shouldn't change that.

[zakman2005000]

This is the question I sent to our state association and the response (evidently straight from NFHS and Mary S)


The following situation was discussed by a few fellow officials and I would like some clarification from you if possible.

With the elimination of lag time, has the following situation changed from prior years.

A player is fouled in the act of shooting with .5 (or whatever time) seconds left and does not release the ball prior to the horn sounding on a successful try. An official glances at the clock and has definite knowledge that time had indeed not expired. Can we score the basket because time had not actually expired? Would the interpretation change if the officials had definite knowledge that the whistle sounded prior to the expiration of time but did not have definite knowledge of the exact time to be placed back on the clock?



This is quite a complicated situation. We do have two rules that seem to conflict one another ....always have in this situation really....but time expiring before the release of the try does take precedent......the no lag-time situation can make a difference.

Let me start by saying....you almost have to see the play to make a ruling. If the whistle for the foul and the horn happen almost simultaneously with each other, then you can't count the subsequent release and goal because the ball is actually dead (Rule 6-7-6 and 6-7-7 Exception c, also see 5-6-2 Exception 3).

If there is an obvious gap between the whistle for the foul and the horn, then yes, we can consider that a timer's mistake and put time back on the clock and we could count the subsequent release and goal....because the clock SHOULD have stopped, which means we never would have had a horn to make the ball dead. Make sense?

I am going to have the committee look at this play in April. We need some direction from them on this and make sure the book is clear.

[sj]

....because the clock SHOULD have stopped, which means we never would have had a horn to make the ball dead. Make sense?

and...

....I am going to have the committee look at this play in April. We need some direction from them on this and make sure the book is clear.

*****Sounds like a perfectly clear and muddled response all at the same time. If they are serious about wanting officials to call it this way they need to let everybody know and put it up on the website. But until then.....

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by zakman2005000

If there is an obvious gap between the whistle for the foul and the horn, then yes, we can consider that a timer's mistake and put time back on the clock and we could count the subsequent release and goal....because the clock SHOULD have stopped, which means we never would have had a horn to make the ball dead. Make sense?

It only makes sense if you know exactly how much time to put back on the clock (said he, continuing to beat a dead horse).

I guess we'll find out which way to go next year.

Thanks Zak.

[FishinRef]

I would love to see ANY official with a digital stop watch, make the clock stop on an exact tenth increment every time. I dare you to try. Everybody is requiring the “knowledge of the exact time of the violation prior to the horn” in order to put time back on the clock. When we are talking about tenths of a second increments, aren’t we really making an educated guess EVERY time we put time back on the clock?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by FishinRef

Everybody is requiring the “knowledge of the exact time of the violation prior to the horn” in order to put time back on the clock. When we are talking about tenths of a second increments, aren’t we really making an educated guess EVERY time we put time back on the clock?

"Everybody" is the NFHS rulesmakers. Not the posters in this thread. You knew that, right?

No educated guesses are allowed. You can put the exact time that the official observed on the clock when he looked at it back on the clock- in tenths of seconds. If the official isn't looking at the clock, an official's count or some other official information is needed before you can adjust the clock.

If you didn't look at the clock, or if you didn't have an official's count going or some other kind of official information available to you, you can't adjust the clock. Dem's the rules.

[FishinRef]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee
"No educated guesses are allowed"

So according to that frame of mind, Every play in Every game is clearly defined in the Rules and Case Books..... You are insinuating that you have never made a rules interpretation during a game based on past experience and common sense???????? I agree with you almost all time on rules interpretations, but we will have to agree to disagree on this matter. If the whistle sounds prior to the horn sounding in a close game, I'll bet a HUGE majority of experienced, knowledgable officials will put SOMETHING back on the clock whether they know the exact time or not.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by FishinRef

So according to that frame of mind, Every play in Every game is clearly defined in the Rules and Case Books.....

The vast majority sureasheck are. I've never had to use rule 2-3 in my life, and I doubt that I ever will.

The key is knowing the rules and then knowing how to apply them. Guessing still ain't allowed.

Time to close this beast. Its been beaten to death three times over now.