Foul-buzzer-shot

[BloggingRefGuy]

3-man mechanics. End of the third quarter.

Lancelot is the C, opposite the table. He's watching for the last shot.

Galahad is the L.

There's a shot. Lancelot toots his whistle and yells "No! No! No shot!"

Galahad has his fist up. He has a foul.

They come together and determine that what happened was foul-buzzer-release, in that order.

Here's where they disagreed. Lancelot says that the player was in the act of shooting, irrespective of whether the buzzer ended the shot. Therefore, we have two shots (and would have two shots even if the ball went in).

Galahad says that there was no shot, since the quarter ended (kinda like if a player was fouled shooting at the wrong hoop). Therefore, we have a non-shooting foul, and would shoot one-and-one (they were in the bonus...yeah, I know, it was a long night).

Much time has been spent looking for a caseplay...no such luck.

Who's right? And if you have a caseplay, it would be appreciated. Thanks.

[Nevadaref]

Lancelot is correct.

I'll provide info later when I find it.

[BloggingRefGuy]

Thanks, Nevada. I suspect you're right, but I'm having a devil of a time finding the supporting evidence.

[Nevadaref]

Not your exact situation, but a case play that I have so far found:

5.2.5 SITUATION C: With three-tenths of a second or less left in a tied game, each team is in the bonus. Team A has a throw-in on the end line near their basket. A1 throws the ball to A5 on the near block who catches the ball and quickly shoots. A5 is fouled by B3 just prior to the period ending horn. The ball goes through A's basket. RULING: Since A5 may not control the ball and attempt a try with three-tenths of a second or less, A5 cannot score a goal and is not considered in the act of shooting. However, B3's foul cannot be ignored and is considered a common foul. A5 is awarded a one-and-one bonus free-throw situation with the lane cleared. A5's free throw attempts will determine if the game is over or if an overtime period is necessary. (4-41-6)

[BloggingRefGuy]

Hmm. Doesn't that support Galahad's argument more than Lancelot's?

I think we shoot two, based on the definition of "shooting/try/tap."

4.41.3: The try starts when the player begins the motion which habitually precedes the release of the ball.

4.41.4: The try ends when the throw is successful, when it is certain the throw is unsuccessful, when the thrown ball touches the floor or when the ball becomes dead.

Since the foul was between the start and the end of the try (it ended when the ball went dead), we have a foul in the act of shooting. Two shots, even if the ball goes in. Not a one-and-one.

Agreed?

[Nevadaref]

I do agree. That play is only one-and-one because of the 3/10ths of a second rule. There can be no catch and shoot in that timeframe.
I'm still looking for something better for you.

[BloggingRefGuy]

Well, thanks for your help. But I'm going to bed. A season debut with a mindbender makes me tired.

[Nevadaref]

Ok, here's a case play with a foul at the expiration of time in a quarter. The foul is during the act of shooting and the player is awarded TWO FTs.



5.6.2 SITUATION H: Team A is leading 61-60. B1 fouls A1 in the act of shooting as time expires. As the officials approach the scorer's table, the Team A coach rushes the floor and begins screaming obscenities at the officials. RULING: A flagrant technical foul is assessed to the Team A coach. The foul at the expiration of time is no longer ignored. The flagrant technical foul on the Team A coach created a false double foul situation, which may affect the outcome of the game. The penalties are administered in the order in which they occurred. With the lane cleared, A1 shoots two free throws for being fouled in the act of shooting. If both are successful, the game is over. If one or both are missed, an eligible player from Team B shoots the two technical foul free throws. The free throws will determine the outcome of the game or an extra period will be played. COMMENT: Jurisdiction of the officials is terminated when all officials leave the visual confines of the playing area. While the preferred action would be for all officials to immediately leave the playing area, such an observable action by the coach should be penalized as unsporting or flagrant. (10-4-1c; 4-19-9; 5-6-2 Exception 3)

[just another ref]

Try 5.6.2 Situation D sounds like 2 shots to me

[Jurassic Referee]

Foul--->buzzer---->release.

The ball becomes dead when the horn goes. Rule 6-7-6. If a foul occurs, rule 6-7-7 also says that the ball becomes dead, with exceptions. Rule 6-7-6EXCEPTION(a&c) say that the exception keeping the ball live only applies if the ball was in flight before time expired. Therefore the ball is dead on the buzzer, no basket, and the shooter gets 2 FT's for being fouled in the act of shooting.

[Nevadaref]

Found it!

5.6.2 SITUATION D: Team A trails 60-59 with just a few seconds remaining in the fourth quarter of play. A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1 but time expires before the ball is in flight. A1 is awarded two free throws. The coach of Team B is charged with a technical foul before A1's attempts. A1 makes: (a) neither throw; (b) one throw; or (c) both throws. When does Team A shoot the free throws resulting from the technical foul? RULING: In (a) and (b), the two free throws for the technical foul are attempted as part of the fourth quarter as the foul occurred before the fourth quarter had ended. In (a), the two free throws for the technical foul will determine if an extra period is necessary. In (b), the one successful free throw ties the game and if either free throw for the technical foul is successful, no extra period is required. In (c), the two successful free throws dictate there will be no extra period. The free throws for the technical foul are not administered as the outcome of the game has been determined. A quarter or extra period does not end until all free throws which could affect the outcome of the game have been attempted and related activity has been completed. (4-41-1; 5-6-3 Exception; 6-7-7)

Damn, just saw that while I was searching JAR beat me to it. Good work JAR.

[BloggingRefGuy]

Thanks, y'all.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

JAR beat me to it. Good work JAR.

My existence is somehow justified. (finally)

[Texas Aggie]

Lancelot is the C

Is he still around?

What I don't understand about your scenario is that Lance said "no shot" and Gil called the foul. Then Lance said "act of shooting", but he didn't call the foul; Gil did. Its up to Gil to determine whether the foul was in the act of shooting. If in the act of shooting and the foul was called prior to the horn, you shoot 2 free throws.

The tougher question, in my view, here is that if the shot isn't released prior to the buzzer sounding, can it count if the ball goes in? In other words, are we shooting 2 FT and not counting a shot under that situation?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Texas Aggie

The tougher question, in my view, here is that if the shot isn't released prior to the buzzer sounding, can it count if the ball goes in? In other words, are we shooting 2 FT and not counting a shot under that situation?

That question has already been answered above. The ball has to be in the air when the buzzer goes to count. Always. The cites to back that up are contained in my last post above.