Foul then Buzzer then shot - Interesting brand new ruling

[Mark Dexter]

Zak (and others):

If we have the exception (that you claim), then why do both the rulebook and the casebook state that the ball needs to be in the air before time expires?

QED.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Zak (and others):

If we have the exception (that you claim), then why do both the rulebook and the casebook state that the ball needs to be in the air before time expires?

QED.

Two reasons. First, because the case play is a hold-over from previous years; when lag time was a factor.

Second, because time may expire on this play if the whistle comes after the horn. There is no provision for putting time back on the clock between a foul/violation and the official's delayed whistle.

[zakman2005000]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

Zak (and others):

If we have the exception (that you claim), then why do both the rulebook and the casebook state that the ball needs to be in the air before time expires?

QED.

But time hasn't expired if we have definite knowledge that time was on the clock when the whistle has been blown. What casebook play are you refering to?

[Grail]

New Play: A1 fouls B1 with 22 seconds on the clock. B1 is not in the act of shooting, but is entitled to bonus free throws. Additionally, B trails by 3 points. The time keeper fails to stop the clock and the horn sounds. Has time expired, or do we shoot the free throws?

In so many of the previous examples, officials are claiming that the clock has expired because the horn sounded. If so, we're going home. B can't catch up with only 2 possible free throws. Of course I'll never work for that assignor again. The obvious answer is that time did not expire. Put time back on the clock and award B the 1-1 (or 2 if in double-bonus) free throws.

A timing error is a timing error and can be corrected with definite knowledge. The only question from the original play is when the whistle and the horn are so close that we may not know exactly what time to put on the clock. Either way, time has not expired.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Grail

. The only question from the original play is when the whistle and the horn are so close that we may not know exactly what time to put on the clock. Either way, time has not expired.

Hmmmm....according to the rules cited already in this thread, time sureasheck has expired. If you can't put time back on the clock, how can possibly say there there is time on the clock? Can you cite any rules that say differently btw?

[Adam]

D@mmit! JR's right. If we can't put time on the clock; time has expired. If time has expired, then the basket can't count.

I really hate posting this.

[lpneck]

This is getting ridiculous.

Here is how I am handling this in my game

If I have a foul, and my whistle is CLEARLY before the buzzer, and the player CLEARLY releases the ball after the buzzer, then I am counting the basket.

I will get together with my crew, and we ARE putting time on the clock. Even if it is 0.1, something is going on the clock. I have DEFINITE KNOWLEDGE that there was a timing error and I am going to fix it the best I can.

"But lpneck," the crowd cried (or at least 2 or 3 of you,) "how can you possibly do that if none of you actually SAW the clock at 0.1? Maybe the clock should have been stopped at 0.2! You don't have definite knowledge!"

Good question. Let me respond with a question. There are 55.4 seconds left in the game. Team A has a throw-in in the back court. They throw the ball in and you get to 3 on your count, and they throw the ball out of bounds. The timer forgets to stop the clock on your whistle and when you look up, the clock says 47.8. None of us saw the clock at the moment the whistle blew.

What do you put the clock at? I put it at 52.4. Anyone disagree? Good.

But hang on a second... how do you KNOW that the clock should be at 52.4? Maybe it should be at 52.5? Maybe the whistle killed it a little after my count got to three and it should be 52.0?

Since I don't know EXACTLY how many tenths of a second should be on the clock, are any of you who are taking the position that I can't put at least 0.1 back on the clock in the last second shot situation going to take the consistent position that you can't fix the game clock here, either?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by lpneck

This is getting ridiculous.

Here is how I am handling this in my game

If I have a foul, and my whistle is CLEARLY before the buzzer, and the player CLEARLY releases the ball after the buzzer, then I am counting the basket.

I will get together with my crew, and we ARE putting time on the clock. Even if it is 0.1, something is going on the clock. I have DEFINITE KNOWLEDGE that there was a timing error and I am going to fix it the best I can.

"But lpneck," the crowd cried (or at least 2 or 3 of you,) "how can you possibly do that if none of you actually SAW the clock at 0.1? Maybe the clock should have been stopped at 0.2! You don't have definite knowledge!"

Good question. Let me respond with a question. There are 55.4 seconds left in the game. Team A has a throw-in in the back court. They throw the ball in and you get to 3 on your count, and they throw the ball out of bounds. The timer forgets to stop the clock on your whistle and when you look up, the clock says 47.8. None of us saw the clock at the moment the whistle blew.

What do you put the clock at? I put it at 52.4. Anyone disagree? Good.

But hang on a second... how do you KNOW that the clock should be at 52.4? Maybe it should be at 52.5? Maybe the whistle killed it a little after my count got to three and it should be 52.0?

Since I don't know EXACTLY how many tenths of a second should be on the clock, are any of you who are taking the position that I can't put at least 0.1 back on the clock in the last second shot situation going to take the consistent position that you can't fix the game clock here, either?

Sigh.....

I hate to be the one to tell you, but it's really not a matter of any of us disagreeing with you. It's a matter of the NFHS disagreeing with you. They're the ones that are telling you that you can't do what you want to do i.e.- guess at what time you're putting back on the clock. Sez so right in the rulebook they published. In rule 5-10 to be exact.

I could care less how you handle it personally. That's up to you. I just want to point out that, until the FED publishes something different, the rules say that you are wrong.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Not even worth a reply....

It is, JR, because it's exactly how I would handle it. There's no way in HELL I would disallow such a basket. If my whistle goes off before the horn, it's a timing error. I am going to have definite knowledge and I am going to put time back on the clock. End of story.

Anything else is cheating the team with the ball. Common sense and fair play still stand for something.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by Rich Fronheiser

It is, JR, because it's exactly how I would handle it. There's no way in HELL I would disallow such a basket. If my whistle goes off before the horn, it's a timing error. I am going to have definite knowledge and I am going to put time back on the clock. End of story.

Anything else is cheating the team with the ball. Common sense and fair play still stand for something.

I said it wasn't worth a reply because there is a very explicit rule--rule 5-10-- that says that you just simply can't do anything like deecee suggested. If you want to ignore that rule, hey, be my guest.

To be quote honest, I personally don't really give a damn how anyone handles it, Rich. I'm just saying how the current rules say that it must be handled- imo. If anybody can come up with something out of the current rules and case book that says anything different, hey, my mind could be changed awful easy. Unfortunately, there hasn't been one rules citation posted in this thread yet giving another way to handle it that doesn't go against the rules that I cited.

Please note that I didn't say how I would personally handle this situation either in this thread. Again, I'm simply disagreeing with the conclusion that given in the original post of this thread. I think that the answer given out in that post can not be justified under existing rules. Twp anyway.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by lpneck

But hang on a second... how do you KNOW that the clock should be at 52.4? Maybe it should be at 52.5? Maybe the whistle killed it a little after my count got to three and it should be 52.0?

5-10-2: If the referee determines that the clock was not started or stopped properly, or if the clock did not run, an official's o**** or other official information can be used to make a correction.

The rules state that your count is definite knowledge.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Snaqwells

Two reasons. First, because the case play is a hold-over from previous years; when lag time was a factor.

Second, because time may expire on this play if the whistle comes after the horn. There is no provision for putting time back on the clock between a foul/violation and the official's delayed whistle.

But it's still a legitimate case play! If Congress wanted to change a law, but forgets to actually propose an ammendment to a bill, you don't just say "well, a few other laws have changed, so this one has, too."

Second, I believe that the plays have nothing to do with lag time. If they did, then there would be two or three parts to each situation - one where the whistle blew with more than 1.0 second on the clock, one where the whistle blew with 0.9 or less on the clock, and one where the ref blew the whistle then the ref looked up at the clock.

[Mark Dexter]

Found this one prepping for my games this evening:

5.6.2 Situation D: Team A trails 60-59 with just a few seconds remaining in the fourth quarter of play. A1 is fouled in the act of shooting by B1 but time expires before the ball is in flight. A1 is awarded two free throws.

Every case play I have seen states that if time expires before the ball is in the air, we don't count the basket. Show me something to the contrary and, like Jurassic, I'll gladly change my mind. (I've been saying for years that this interpretation is how the rule should read, but it's just not the case.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by Mark Dexter

A1 has the ball and begins his habitual motion preceeding his shot. B1 fouls A1 and the whistle is sounded. A1 then travels, releases the ball, and it successfully goes through the hoop.

What's your call?

That has nothing to do with this discussion. But the call is a foul, waive the basket if made, 2 FTs. If it were any other way, a player fouled while trying to shoot could hang onto the ball, take 3-4 steps closer to the basket and still score.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

That has nothing to do with this discussion. But the call is a foul, waive the basket if made, 2 FTs. If it were any other way, a player fouled while trying to shoot could hang onto the ball, take 3-4 steps closer to the basket and still score.

Precisely.

We don't allow extra steps just because A1 is fouled on the try.

We don't allow team A to goaltend or commit BI just because A1 is fouled on the try.

So why, then, would we ignore the legal sounding of the buzzer just because A1 is fouled on the try?