shot hits support wire

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

No?

The shot clock horn sounds as A1's shot is in the air. The ball clearly does not hit the rim. The shot clock resets to 35. A2 gets control of the ball and puts in a layup for 2 points. No one blows the whistle.

You are T. You saw the ball miss the rim. What do you do next?

1. If this is a quick rebound/shot and the shot clock would NOT have expired, we play on.
2. If this is a quick rebound/shot and the shot clock would have expired, I put air in the whistle and give B the ball.
3. If this is a rebound with time before the shot, we stop play and put the correct time back on the shot clock.

It is a tough sell to stop play if the team is about to score and you know the shot clock wouldn't have expired before the shot.

Asking me, and many of the people who have responded, is close to useless. I would like to think that my reflex would be to put air in the whistle when I know the ball has hit the wire. If I'm not sure I shouldn't be blowing the whistle.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, let me try this one:
Partner signals a good 3-point attempt. The other coach calls TO and asks you to confer whether it was a 3 or a 2. You didn't see it, but your partner tells you, "Oh, yea, the shooter's feet were on the line, but that's still a good 3-pointer. The feet have to be completely inside the arc to be a 2-pointer." So, you didn't see the play, your partner did, and in their judgement it's a 3-point basket. What do you do? Would it make a difference if it was with .05 seconds left in the game, and the it makes a difference between a 1 point game or a tie? (Well, besides shooting your partner right there on the spot?)

M&M,

I learned long time ago that some things you cannot correct. If your partner does not have the ability to make decisions on their own, I am not going to come in and debate a call. We are going to make mistakes and sometimes mistakes will be big. I cannot give a rules clinic every game to partners that see the entire play. If there is a problem, that is something the assignor or state will have to deal with. All I could do in this case is tell the coach that I did not see it and move on.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

1. If this is a quick rebound/shot and the shot clock would NOT have expired, we play on.
2. If this is a quick rebound/shot and the shot clock would have expired, I put air in the whistle and give B the ball.
3. If this is a rebound with time before the shot, we stop play and put the correct time back on the shot clock.

You're muddying the waters here Tom. Only the 2nd case comes close to answering my question. My question is if there was no whistle as A2 quickly puts the rebound in after an obvious shot clock violation do you play on & live with it or blow the whistle and take the points off. Those are the 2 choices.

Asking me, and many of the people who have responded, is close to useless. I would like to think that my reflex would be to put air in the whistle when I know the ball has hit the wire. If I'm not sure I shouldn't be blowing the whistle.

But that aint the question, is it? The question from Bob was if the T sees the ball hit the wire but does not know the rule do you play on & live with it or take the points off after the coach calls TO to discuss. Those are the 2 choices.

[Junker]

Originally Posted by tomegun

1. If

Asking me, and many of the people who have responded, is close to useless. I would like to think that my reflex would be to put air in the whistle when I know the ball has hit the wire. If I'm not sure I shouldn't be blowing the whistle.

Well said. Don't blow the whistle unless you are 100% sure.

[Hartsy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

You still don't have rules justification to go back and fix your mistake. Your mistake was not calling the violation, and that mistake ain't correctable under any rule that I'm aware of.

Well said. The correctable error rules do not mention uncalled violations.

[OHBBREF]

If all three of you missed the violation I do not think that you can go back and call the violation after the fact. If one of you saw it they should have called it even late.
If you all missed it then you all are going to have to live with it - and I see no way that you can do anything to correct it, maybe elasticity but no other way out that I can see.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

M&M,

I learned long time ago that some things you cannot correct. If your partner does not have the ability to make decisions on their own, I am not going to come in and debate a call. We are going to make mistakes and sometimes mistakes will be big. I cannot give a rules clinic every game to partners that see the entire play. If there is a problem, that is something the assignor or state will have to deal with. All I could do in this case is tell the coach that I did not see it and move on.

Peace

So, let me get this straight. During the TO, you get with your partner, they tell you their reason for calling the basket a 3 instead of 2, and your response will be, :shrug: "Some things I cannot correct."? I would have a very upset coach ripping me a new one for not correcting my partner's ruling, and my assignor would rip me a second one for the same thing. You're not arguing seeing the foot on the line or not (judgement), you're arguing whether the foot being on the line is still considered a 3-point attempt (rule interpretation). That's a correctable error, by rule. And if "All I could do in this case is tell the coach that I did not see it and move on", I would be moving on to a different league pretty quickly.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

So, let me get this straight. During the TO, you get with your partner, they tell you their reason for calling the basket a 3 instead of 2, and your response will be, :shrug: "Some things I cannot correct."? I would have a very upset coach ripping me a new one for not correcting my partner's ruling, and my assignor would rip me a second one for the same thing. You're not arguing seeing the foot on the line or not (judgement), you're arguing whether the foot being on the line is still considered a 3-point attempt (rule interpretation). That's a correctable error, by rule. And if "All I could do in this case is tell the coach that I did not see it and move on", I would be moving on to a different league pretty quickly.

Apples and kumquats.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Apples and kumquats.

Both of which sound rather tasty this time of day.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

So, let me get this straight. During the TO, you get with your partner, they tell you their reason for calling the basket a 3 instead of 2, and your response will be, :shrug: "Some things I cannot correct."? I would have a very upset coach ripping me a new one for not correcting my partner's ruling, and my assignor would rip me a second one for the same thing. You're not arguing seeing the foot on the line or not (judgement), you're arguing whether the foot being on the line is still considered a 3-point attempt (rule interpretation). That's a correctable error, by rule. And if "All I could do in this case is tell the coach that I did not see it and move on", I would be moving on to a different league pretty quickly.

ALL SITUATIONS CANNOT BE CORRECTED!!! That is just the way it is. It is only correctable if the calling official knows they screwed up. You said that one official did not see the play. Now you want me to correct something I did not see. I get paid the same amount of money that my partners get. If they cannot do their job, they will not be there for long. It is not my job to save people from those kinds of mistakes.

Peace

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

ALL SITUATIONS CANNOT BE CORRECTED!!! That is just the way it is. It is only correctable if the calling official knows they screwed up. You said that one official did not see the play. Now you want me to correct something I did not see.

It is not my job to save people from those kinds of mistakes.

Sigh...

I'm not sure you read either Bob's or my play completely. I'm not asking you to correct something you didn't see. I'm asking if you would correct a partner's interpretation of a rule. If a partner tells you the ball hit the support, and they ruled it still in play, would you let it go? If a partner tells you they ruled a shot a 3-pointer because the shooter's foot wasn't completely within the line, but only on the line, would you just let it go? Remember, in both cases, there has been a TO already called for the crew to discuss this. I'm not asking you to stop play to find out what your partner called. either.

[deecee]

I would advise my parnter on the correct rule -- its up to him if he wants to listen or not. Either way this screw up will be notified to my association by me -- especially if he didn't want to listen.

If my partner comes to me like this and he is 100% sure and I am NOT 100% sure I will listen to him and change whatever call I just butchered.

However on the hitting the wire after a shot -- thats a missed call that I am not going to even dabble in. But the 3 is an easy fix -- hey coach we got this wrong it was a 3 not a 2 -- and assuming it hasnt been like 5-10 minutes later.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

You're muddying the waters here Tom. Only the 2nd case comes close to answering my question. My question is if there was no whistle as A2 quickly puts the rebound in after an obvious shot clock violation do you play on & live with it or blow the whistle and take the points off. Those are the 2 choices.

But that aint the question, is it? The question from Bob was if the T sees the ball hit the wire but does not know the rule do you play on & live with it or take the points off after the coach calls TO to discuss. Those are the 2 choices.

I don't think I muddied ( muddied) up the waters, I think you did. Anyway, if there is an obvious shot clock violation I blow my whistle and the bucket doesn't count. That is part of officiating with a shot clock. Again, if nobody calls the violation, is it really a violation? If a tree falls...

In the original situation, I live with it. I think several people have said this before. If you show me a rule that clearly says I can go back into time and change a mistake...well, I won't use it anyway!

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I'm asking if you would correct a partner's interpretation of a rule. If a partner tells you the ball hit the support, and they ruled it still in play, would you let it go? If a partner tells you they ruled a shot a 3-pointer because the shooter's foot wasn't completely within the line, but only on the line, would you just let it go? Remember, in both cases, there has been a TO already called for the crew to discuss this. I'm not asking you to stop play to find out what your partner called. either.

Sigh....

Apples and watermelons again.

The first case is a missed violation. There is no rule that says you can hop in your Wayback Machine, go back in time and call missed violations.

The second case is a correctable error. See case book plays 2-10-1SitF&G.

Apples and watermelons----a non-correctable missed violation vs. a correctable error. One isn't covered under the rules; one is.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Sigh...

I'm not sure you read either Bob's or my play completely. I'm not asking you to correct something you didn't see. I'm asking if you would correct a partner's interpretation of a rule. If a partner tells you the ball hit the support, and they ruled it still in play, would you let it go? If a partner tells you they ruled a shot a 3-pointer because the shooter's foot wasn't completely within the line, but only on the line, would you just let it go? Remember, in both cases, there has been a TO already called for the crew to discuss this. I'm not asking you to stop play to find out what your partner called. either.

Why are we talking about a coach calling a timeout like it is the holy grail or something?
I would not waive off the basket because I have no support in the rule book to do so. My partner might feel like crap and I might feel like crap, but there isn't anything that should be done. Let the coach take his/her timeout and get the game going. Learn from this and don't let it happen again. I don't know about anybody else, but my first few years were not all peaches and cream. Getting bit is sometimes the best way to learn.
Whether a basket is a three pointer or not is something totally different. Once I'm made aware of the shooter's foot being on the line I will look to the scorer and say, "The basket is a two." After that, we put the ball in play and talk about the rule at the next opportunity. Delaying the game for this will only cause problems. If for some reason I'm not the R or my partner won't budge I will say, "For the record, I think we should do...." and we put the ball back into play. When the crap hits the fan, I went on record saying we should do the right thing and my partner(s) chose to do otherwise.

That dang live ball sure will make the coach start thinking about other things!