shot hits support wire

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

But in this case, you get together, and your partner is positive the ball hit the support. In this case, do you have a rule citation backing up allowing this dead ball to pass through the net and count as a score? Again, what is your explanation to a coach about the ball definitely hitting the support, but the basket still counts?

Yup, just gave it above. A live ball passing through the basket is a legal score as per rule 5-1-1. There never was a dead ball that went through the basket. Nothing happened, by rule(specifically rule 6-7) to ever make the ball dead.

My explanation is what Tomegun posted above...." I blew it and I don't know of a rule that will allow me to waive off the basket". The condensed version is "sh!t happens". Then get the ball back into play asap. Good advice imo.

[tomegun]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

In most cases, I do the same thing - "I missed it coach."

But, go back to the original sitch, and you are the L in this case. During the TO, your partner, the T, tells you that yes, indeed, the ball did hit the support before falling through the basket, but that's not a violation. You, of course, know that it is a violation. Your partner didn't miss the violation, (s)he mis-applied the rule.

What do you tell the coach who requested the TO?

I say we missed it and get the game started. What else is there for me to do? I'm not going to waive off a basket and go back in time.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

Yup, just gave it above. A live ball passing through the basket is a legal score as per rule 5-1-1. There never was a dead ball that went through the basket. Nothing happened, by rule(specifically rule 6-7) to ever make the ball dead.

My explanation is what Tomegun posted above...." I blew it and I don't know of a rule that will allow me to waive off the basket". The condensed version is "sh!t happens". Then get the ball back into play asap. Good advice imo.

But it wasn't a live ball, was it? I gave you all the references. Can you give me any references to say that a ball that the officials rule hits the support is still a live ball? And the rule we would use to waive/wave off (dis-allow) the basket would be the correctable error rule - erroneously counting a basket as a result of setting aside a rule.

I know this isn't a real good reason, but sometimes the simplest explanation is the best way to go. I would rather explain to one coach the reason we're taking away their basket is because the ball hit the support. That would be easier than trying to explain to the other coach why we're allowing the basket, even though we know the ball did hit the support.

But I do agree with the comments about "sh!it happens", and getting the ball back in play ASAP. That's still important.

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I say we missed it and get the game started. What else is there for me to do? I'm not going to waive off a basket and go back in time.

Not meaning to sound like a smartazz, but do you say the same thing when you have a player shoot a 1-and-1, they make both, then the table buzzes and tells you that they weren't in the bonus; it was only the 6th foul. Do you just tell the coach, "Sorry, we missed it; we're certainly not going to waive off two baskets and go back in time"?

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

But it wasn't a live ball, was it? I gave you all the references. Can you give me any references to say that a ball that the officials rule hits the support is still a live ball? And the rule we would use to waive/wave off (dis-allow) the basket would be the correctable error rule - erroneously counting a basket as a result of setting aside a rule.

It is only a dead ball if you call a violation. You do not call a violation, then how can you go back and say..."Oh by the way, that was supposed to be a dead ball but we did not know it until now." You know you cannot do that.

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

I know this isn't a real good reason, but sometimes the simplest explanation is the best way to go. I would rather explain to one coach the reason we're taking away their basket is because the ball hit the support. That would be easier than trying to explain to the other coach why we're allowing the basket, even though we know the ball did hit the support.

Well when you are the Referee on the game, you have a right to make that decision. If I am the Referee on the game, we are not going back in time to cancel a basket based on a violation that was not called. All you are going to do is open every non-called violation for possible debate if you follow through with your application of this rule.

Peace

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by tomegun

I say we missed it and get the game started. What else is there for me to do? I'm not going to waive off a basket and go back in time.

No?

The shot clock horn sounds as A1's shot is in the air. The ball clearly does not hit the rim. The shot clock resets to 35. A2 gets control of the ball and puts in a layup for 2 points. No one blows the whistle.

You are T. You saw the ball miss the rim. What do you do next?

[M&M Guy]

Originally Posted by JRutledge

It is only a dead ball if you call a violation.

The rules don't say that. The rule states it's a violation when it occurs, not when it is called. And it's up to us to decide if it occurs. If we didn't see it happen, it didn't occur. In this case, the official did see it happen, so it did occur. This isn't about one official over-ruling another, or questioning the judgement of the call, it's the application of the rule.

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

1) But it wasn't a live ball, was it? I gave you all the references. Can you give me any references to say that a ball that the officials rule hits the support is still a live ball?

2)I know this isn't a real good reason, but sometimes the simplest explanation is the best way to go. I would rather explain to one coach the reason we're taking away their basket is because the ball hit the support. That would be easier than trying to explain to the other coach why we're allowing the basket, even though we know the ball did hit the support.

1) I already have. There was no freaking whistle blown to make the ball dead. You can't just point at the ball and say "Ball, you're dead!". Your references aren't valid because, by rule, those violations that you cited never happened.

2) You're right. That isn't a good reason. Do you honestly think that is easier than trying to explain to the other coach that you're cancelling his basket, but you don't really have a rule that will allow you to do so? Good luck with that, Karnack. You're gonna need all of your magic tricks to get way with that one. And....how are you gonna explain it to your assignor when he asks you what rule you used to make that decision? I've heard that some of them can be real pricks too.

[Dan_ref]

Originally Posted by Jurassic Referee

1) I already have. There was no freaking whistle blown to make the ball dead. You can't just point at the ball and say "Ball, you're dead!". Your references aren't valid because, by rule, those violations that you cited never happened.

OK, I'll try you then:

The shot clock horn sounds as A1's shot is in the air. The ball clearly does not hit the rim. The shot clock resets to 35. A2 gets control of the ball and puts in a layup for 2 points. No one blows the whistle.

You are T. You saw the ball miss the rim. What do you do next?

[Jurassic Referee]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Not meaning to sound like a smartazz, but do you say the same thing when you have a player shoot a 1-and-1, they make both, then the table buzzes and tells you that they weren't in the bonus; it was only the 6th foul. Do you just tell the coach, "Sorry, we missed it; we're certainly not going to waive off two baskets and go back in time"?

Apples and onions, M. One screw-up is covered under correctable errors in the rulebook. The other screw-up isn't covered anywhere in the rule book.

[JRutledge]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

The rules don't say that. The rule states it's a violation when it occurs, not when it is called. And it's up to us to decide if it occurs. If we didn't see it happen, it didn't occur. In this case, the official did see it happen, so it did occur. This isn't about one official over-ruling another, or questioning the judgement of the call, it's the application of the rule.

You have to call a violation to make the ball dead. It would be no different if we had a GT that was not called (and obvious to everyone) and play continues. The ball is never dead because there never was call that acknowledged a violation took place.

Misapplying a rule is when we make a call then we put the ball in the wrong place or award the improper amount of FTs. Missing a violation is not simply misapplying rules.

Peace

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

OK, I'll try you then:

The shot clock horn sounds as A1's shot is in the air. The ball clearly does not hit the rim. The shot clock resets to 35. A2 gets control of the ball and puts in a layup for 2 points. No one blows the whistle.

You are T. You saw the ball miss the rim. What do you do next?

Or, try this "reverse" of my play:

A1 attempts a shot. The ball hits the rim, then bounces up and hits the top of the backboard. While the ball is bouncing on the top of the backboard, T blows the whistle and declares the ball OOB. The ball then drops off the front of the backboard and through the basket. The coach immediately (but politely, and in a state that allows the coaching box) jumps up and says, "The top of the backboard is not OOB, and the basket should count."

I think we're all declaring this an inadvertant whistle, the try didn't end, the basket counts, B gets the ball for a throw-in anywhere along the endline.

But, what if the coach doesn't realize what T called until the next time the ball becomes dead? Can the error be corrected?

[M&M Guy]

Ok, let me try this one:
Partner signals a good 3-point attempt. The other coach calls TO and asks you to confer whether it was a 3 or a 2. You didn't see it, but your partner tells you, "Oh, yea, the shooter's feet were on the line, but that's still a good 3-pointer. The feet have to be completely inside the arc to be a 2-pointer." So, you didn't see the play, your partner did, and in their judgement it's a 3-point basket. What do you do? Would it make a difference if it was with .05 seconds left in the game, and the it makes a difference between a 1 point game or a tie? (Well, besides shooting your partner right there on the spot?)

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by Dan_ref

OK, I'll try you then:

The shot clock horn sounds as A1's shot is in the air. The ball clearly does not hit the rim. The shot clock resets to 35. A2 gets control of the ball and puts in a layup for 2 points. No one blows the whistle.

You are T. You saw the ball miss the rim. What do you do next?

I will answer it. If I see that it did not hit the rim and I did not blow the whistle we will play on.

[truerookie]

Originally Posted by M&M Guy

Ok, let me try this one:
Partner signals a good 3-point attempt. The other coach calls TO and asks you to confer whether it was a 3 or a 2. You didn't see it, but your partner tells you, "Oh, yea, the shooter's feet were on the line, but that's still a good 3-pointer. The feet have to be completely inside the arc to be a 2-pointer." So, you didn't see the play, your partner did, and in their judgement it's a 3-point basket. What do you do? Would it make a difference if it was with .05 seconds left in the game, and the it makes a difference between a 1 point game or a tie? (Well, besides shooting your partner right there on the spot?)

His primary and I did not see the entire play. Its a THREE!!! Hey wait do we have the use of the monitor?