Kick or Fist

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Do you disagree with the case book which says that when the ball is placed on the floor at the team's disposal, the ball is live? If I grab the ball and place it on the floor or it's sitting on the floor after a goal, it's at the disposal and therefore live, whether anyone is in "a postion to make use of the ball" or not.

No, I do not disagree. If you have time to get the ball and place it on the floor, the team certainly has had sufficient time to be ready for the throwin. That count doesn't begin until you actually put it on the floor, not when you decide you're going to put it on the floor. Again, the ball sitting there on the floor OOB at a valid throwin location implies that the team could easily pick it up and make the throwin but is not doing so. After seeing that the team is not doing so, the official declares the ball at the disposal/available (live) and starts counting. The situation I keep referring to is when the ball is NOT at a location where it could be thrown in....inbounds...by 5, 10, or 50 feet.

Originally posted by BktBallRef

I believe that NVRef's contention is that if A1 is close enough to kick the ball, then the ball is "available or at their disposal." I would agree with that.

What if A1, when he picks up the ball, is under the basket, at the FT line, top of the key, divsion line, opposite FT line? What rule makes one location different than the other? Why would it be availble under the basket but not at the division line? At precisely what spot on the floor does the definition change from available to unavailable?

Originally posted by BktBallRef

C'mon Camron, you can do better than that. You know that any actions along that lines would be delay of game (10-1-5b, "Delay the game by preventing the ball from being made promptly live or from being put in play"). Why does you keep posting that? That would be an obvious delay of game.

By your interpretation, the ball is already live and in play so they couldn't possibly keep it from being made so. If the ball is live for the throwin and the ball is in the inbounds side of the throwin plane, the defense may freely attack the ball. See CB 7.6.3A-F...several of them backup that point.

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Sorry but that ain't what the rule book says. I agree that this is the way we all enforce it, unless a team is trying to delay and burn some clock. But that's not what the rule states.

Why do we enforce it that way then if that is not the rule?

Show me any case that declares the ball live and the throwin started when the ball is promptly picked up. There are NONE because that is not the meaning of the rule.


Consider 6-1-2-c. When is it at the disposal of the free thrower? When you either put it on the line or they catch it inside the semi-circle. It is not at the disposal any other way. You don't make it at the disposal of the thrower by handing/bouncing it to them anywhere else. They must be in the correct location.

[Dan_ref]

....and there's the bell ending the round. It's a close one but I think the judges have to give it to Camron so far...

[Jurassic Referee]

[/B][/QUOTE]
Why do we enforce it that way then if that is not the rule?

Show me any case that declares the ball live and the throwin started when the ball is promptly picked up. There are NONE because that is not the meaning of the rule.


Consider 6-1-2-c. When is it at the disposal of the free thrower? When you either put it on the line or they catch it inside the semi-circle. It is not at the disposal any other way. You don't make it at the disposal of the thrower by handing/bouncing it to them anywhere else. They must be in the correct location. [/B][/QUOTE]Have you read case book play 6.1.2SitB? In that one the ball is bouncing close to the end line but ain't OOB yet. It says "If the covering official judges it is at the thrower's disposal, he/she would start the count and the ball becomes live. In this case, in (a) NO timeout is granted". The COMMENT also says "The covering official shall start his/her throw-in count when it is determined the ball is available".

Comments?

[deecee]

After a made basket by B1, A1 kicks the ball up to himself and punches it to A2 who is OOB and he slaps it back to A1 -- but Coach B calls for a timeout simultaneously as A2 slaps the ball --


the question, I guess, is how many fans are watching the game?

[Camron Rust]

Originally posted by Jurassic Referee

Why do we enforce it that way then if that is not the rule?

Show me any case that declares the ball live and the throwin started when the ball is promptly picked up. There are NONE because that is not the meaning of the rule.


Consider 6-1-2-c. When is it at the disposal of the free thrower? When you either put it on the line or they catch it inside the semi-circle. It is not at the disposal any other way. You don't make it at the disposal of the thrower by handing/bouncing it to them anywhere else. They must be in the correct location. [/B][/QUOTE]Have you read case book play 6.1.2SitB? In that one the ball is bouncing close to the end line but ain't OOB yet. It says "If the covering official judges it is at the thrower's disposal, he/she would start the count and the ball becomes live. In this case, in (a) NO timeout is granted". The COMMENT also says "The covering official shall start his/her throw-in count when it is determined the ball is available".

Comments? [/B][/QUOTE]

Note the official had to judge that it was at the thrower's disposal/available (meaning the thrower could make use of the ball but hasn't). That is not my arguement. I'm fine with starting the count and not granting the timeout in this case...when the ball is in a location where it could easily be picked up and thrown in but the team hasn't done so.

My arguement is that at disposal/available is not triggered by the player picking the ball up unless the location is such that it could be thrown in from that spot. It makes no sense to start the count and not grant a timeout when, after the made bucket, the ball bounces into the hands of A1, who is at the FT line. Unless that player is already sprinting, it will take a couple of seconds for that player to get OOB with the ball.

Why should the new throwin team have differing amounts of time to make the throwin based on where the ball bounces after a made basket?

[Edited by Camron Rust on Jun 7th, 2005 at 08:16 PM]

[Camron Rust]

Update on this topic.

I received a call (on a different topic) from our commissoiner who is also the state rules interpreter and former NFHS rules committee member.

While I had him on the phone, I asket about this topic. His interpretatoin was largely (but not completely) in line with your position.

His interpretation was that if they picked up the ball "near/at" the endline and the throwin is imminent, the count should start and the timeout be denied. If they picked up the ball away from the endline because the ball bounced away, then the count should not be started and the timeout should be granted.

Also, the "kick" would not by itself be enough to be at their disposal.


[Edited by Camron Rust on Jun 9th, 2005 at 07:50 PM]

[Nevadaref]

Camron,
I agree 100% with everything that you wrote in that last post. There is judgment required here.

I definitely think that you need to take into consideration how far the ball is from the endline when judging whether or not it should be deemed live. Though, as you've just written, it certainly doesn't have to be OOB for it to be deemed live and the throw-in count started.

I didn't mean to convey that the kick by itself is enough to make the ball live. I was also envisioning that the ball was close to the endline. How close? That's a judgment call by the the official. A few feet should suffice. I do firmly believe that under normal circumstances the kick would occur during a live ball.

Thanks for taking the time to follow up on this issue with your interpreter. Everyone on this forum knows that you care about doing a good job.

Some of the scenarios you came up with earlier gave me a good laugh.