The Official Forum  

Go Back   The Official Forum > Basketball

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Rate Thread Display Modes
  #1 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2001, 05:42pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 8
I am curious where in the NCAA rules book it states that a player can take two steps before shooting. For example, a layup. Thanks in advance for any help; you guys are awesome!
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2001, 05:54pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,614
Quote:
Originally posted by C rabby
I am curious where in the NCAA rules book it states that a player can take two steps before shooting. For example, a layup. Thanks in advance for any help; you guys are awesome!
It doesn't.

Typically, what happens in a layup is that the player catches the ball or ceases to dribble while both feet are off the floor. The next foot to touch the floor is the pivot. The second step is by the non-pivot foot. It's then legal for the player to pick up the pivot foot and jump off the non-pivot foot and shoot, prior to returning the pivot to the floor.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott

"You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old Thu Mar 22, 2001, 05:55pm
In Memoriam
 
Join Date: Nov 1999
Location: Houghton, U.P., Michigan
Posts: 9,953
Lightbulb

Quote:
Originally posted by C rabby
I am curious where in the NCAA rules book it states that a player can take two steps before shooting. For example, a layup. Thanks in advance for any help; you guys are awesome!
C,
It certainly doesn't. We have to establish when the player has actual control of the ball, and then which foot/feet are on the floor. After having control, then we determine the pivot may not touch the floor after being lifted.
mick
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 23, 2001, 03:05am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Portland, Oregon
Posts: 9,466
Send a message via AIM to rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Typically, what happens in a layup is that the player catches the ball or ceases to dribble while both feet are off the floor.
I agree that this is how it is usually interpreted, but I disagree that this is what is actually happening. Increasingly, in the last couple of years, kids are catching the ball, or ending the dribble with one foot, or even both feet on the floor AND THEN TAKING TWO MORE STEPS! Sorry to yell; I'm feeling a little emotional on this subject, since it hurt me in an eval recently. If you start watching the lay-ups (NCAA) in slo-mo and carefully observe when the dribbler "scoops up" the ball, you will see A LOT of travelling that doesn't get called. There may be a good reason for not calling it, but my feeling is that it is ignored not no-called. In high school, I feel this should be called every time, but it isn't and if I want to move up, I'm going to have to do some hard thinking about how to handle this.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 23, 2001, 08:05am
Suppref
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
I say call it..

Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Typically, what happens in a layup is that the player catches the ball or ceases to dribble while both feet are off the floor.
I agree that this is how it is usually interpreted, but I disagree that this is what is actually happening. Increasingly, in the last couple of years, kids are catching the ball, or ending the dribble with one foot, or even both feet on the floor AND THEN TAKING TWO MORE STEPS! Sorry to yell; I'm feeling a little emotional on this subject, since it hurt me in an eval recently. If you start watching the lay-ups (NCAA) in slo-mo and carefully observe when the dribbler "scoops up" the ball, you will see A LOT of travelling that doesn't get called. There may be a good reason for not calling it, but my feeling is that it is ignored not no-called. In high school, I feel this should be called every time, but it isn't and if I want to move up, I'm going to have to do some hard thinking about how to handle this.
I call this every time. I had a vet say to me once that I should have let it go, I told him that it was a travel and if it comes down to a 1 point game then an advantage was gained. Since I cannot prdict the outcome of a game I call it when it happens. I get in less trouble for blowing my whistle than I do for not blowing it.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 23, 2001, 09:26am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 14,614
Quote:
Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:
Originally posted by BktBallRef
Typically, what happens in a layup is that the player catches the ball or ceases to dribble while both feet are off the floor.
I agree that this is how it is usually interpreted, but I disagree that this is what is actually happening.
I said typicallly this is what happens. I didn't say it happened every time and when it doesn't, it's traveling. When it happens, blow your whistle, raise your hand, and roll your wrists.
__________________
"...as cool as the other side of the pillow." - Stuart Scott

"You should never be proud of doing the right thing." - Dean Smith
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 23, 2001, 11:18am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 18
Thumbs up

I totally agree with this.

"Since I cannot predict the outcome of a game I call
it when it happens. I get in less trouble for
blowing my whistle than I do for not blowing it."
__________________
Have fun - Suppref


At the lower levels I believe kids get bad habits because things are not called and explained. They think it is OK because they get away with it 95 percent of the time.

The NBA has given them an example of a travel they all think is OK. It is upon a dive to the basket in traffic where they pick up the dribble, hop, and then take two steps. This makes the highlight film in the NBA but I always try to get this called as a travel when I am coaching. I explain it to the refs that you can not jump into the air and then take 2 steps. A jump stop is acceptable but not the 2 steps to the basket.
__________________
Coach B
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 23, 2001, 11:47am
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Central Wisconsin
Posts: 1,069
Thanks Coach....

I volunteered to help with the 4th & 5th Grade intermural program at my kids' school.... and am constantly explaining the call... and for the most part, the parents have been supportive.

This is the level where they need to build these fundamentals.
__________________
"Stay in the game!"
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 23, 2001, 01:21pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,685
Thumbs down Not our job

Quote:
Originally posted by CoachB
At the lower levels I believe kids get bad habits because things are not called and explained. They think it is OK because they get away with it 95 percent of the time.
[/B]
It is not our responisbility to explain calls at any level. If a kid asks I will explain the lower the level, I have no problem telling them what they can and cannot do and what they did at that point. But it is not our responsibility to explain any rule, it is our responsibility to call violations and fouls when they happen. And you also must understand that many of the lower levels do not always have "competent" officials. So expecting a good explaination, might be asking too much.
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 23, 2001, 01:39pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2001
Posts: 8
Cool

Thanks, y'all!! I kinda thought that was how it was done, pivot to non pivot and the shot. I just wanted to check and see if I was missing something. Go Terps!!
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 23, 2001, 02:24pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2000
Posts: 2,217
Re: Not our job

Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:
Originally posted by CoachB
At the lower levels I believe kids get bad habits because things are not called and explained. They think it is OK because they get away with it 95 percent of the time.
It is not our responisbility to explain calls at any level. If a kid asks I will explain the lower the level, I have no problem telling them what they can and cannot do and what they did at that point. But it is not our responsibility to explain any rule, it is our responsibility to call violations and fouls when they happen. And you also must understand that many of the lower levels do not always have "competent" officials. So expecting a good explaination, might be asking too much. [/B]
Technically true jrut, no rule says you have to explain. But we are in the elementary teaching business here at the lower levels. Frequently, referees are explaining calls at the these levels, to the benefit of the young players. And it usually doesn't matter the level of the official, because we are not talking about elaborate interpretations of subsections of rules - we're talking double dribble, travelling, and 3 seconds (which is usually 10 seconds) in rec leagues. Above the lowest levels, make the call and get on with it. Let the coaches teach their players.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 23, 2001, 03:03pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 378
I agree completely, Hawks Coach! While I seldom do much ball at the lower levels anymore, I do a bunch at this time of year for some AAU tournaments. A couple reasons I enjoy doing these kids' games so much is that 1) they rarely react to a call they didn't understand, and 2)I often get comments of appreciation from parents for explaining the basic calls to the kids. The kids seldom ask, "What did I do?" but they are almost always ready to listen to a quick explanation. It's all about teaching and learning for those kids, so I see no reason why we as officials can't, and shouldn't, be part of that process. Now for SOME of the PARENTS . . . that's a different story.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 23, 2001, 03:20pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,685
Thumbs down Re: Explaining things.

Quote:
Originally posted by Hawks Coach
At the lower levels I believe kids get bad habits because things are not called and explained. They think it is OK because they get away with it 95 percent of the time.
[/B]
Technically true jrut, no rule says you have to explain. But we are in the elementary teaching business here at the lower levels. Frequently, referees are explaining calls at the these levels, to the benefit of the young players. And it usually doesn't matter the level of the official, because we are not talking about elaborate interpretations of subsections of rules - we're talking double dribble, travelling, and 3 seconds (which is usually 10 seconds) in rec leagues. Above the lowest levels, make the call and get on with it. Let the coaches teach their players.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Again, you are missing the point. I understand that officials explain more at the lower levels, but you can only explain so much. You cannot explain every travel, every carry, every out of bounds calls. It is the responsibility of the coaches to know the rules and teach the rules to the kids that play for them. It is not the responsibility to stop play or not continue play because a kid cannot understand why he/she carried the ball. Officials in a basketball game make so many decisions, are you expecting us to explain all none calls too? I am an official, not a coach. You have coach as your title, use it, I just call fouls and violations and manage the game. I am not there to teach.

Obviously if I have a young person whether I am doing varsity or 5th and 6th grade game, and one of those players comes up to me an asks a question about something, I am going to talk to them. If they come in the right tone I will answer their question, regardless of if it is the captain or not. But I am not going to call a travel and because I have to go down court, stop doing that and explain in detail why the kid travelled. We need to keep the game moving, and explaining everything is not going to help.


__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 23, 2001, 03:59pm
Official Forum Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2000
Posts: 378
Unhappy Re: Re: Explaining things.

Quote:
Originally posted by JRutledge
Again, you are missing the point. I understand that officials explain more at the lower levels, but you can only explain so much. You cannot explain every travel, every carry, every out of bounds calls. .... Officials in a basketball game make so many decisions, are you expecting us to explain all none calls too? I am an official, not a coach .... I am not there to teach.

I am not going to call a travel and because I have to go down court, stop doing that and explain in detail why the kid travelled. We need to keep the game moving, and explaining everything is not going to help.
Rut, I think you're carrying this thing much farther than anyone intended. Of COURSE we're not going to explain everything or take a lot of time doing so, thereby slowing down the game significantly. But I've seen refs do a bit of "teaching," and I've seen refs make calls where the kids stand there bewildered because they have no clue what happened. In my experience, the first types of refs are much more appreciated and have better-managed games. That doesn't mean that officials who try to keep the game moving without offering explanations are doing a "bad" job. Yet, there are plenty of little opportunities to use a teaching moment to the benefit of the player, without the game being slowed down even noticeably. I, for one, will continue to take advantage of them (but not on EVERY SINGLE call).
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old Fri Mar 23, 2001, 06:37pm
Do not give a damn!!
 
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: On the border
Posts: 29,685
Re: I hope I do not have to say this again.

Quote:
Originally posted by Todd VandenAkker
Rut, I think you're carrying this thing much farther than anyone intended. Of COURSE we're not going to explain everything or take a lot of time doing so, thereby slowing down the game significantly. But I've seen refs do a bit of "teaching," and I've seen refs make calls where the kids stand there bewildered because they have no clue what happened. In my experience, the first types of refs are much more appreciated and have better-managed games. That doesn't mean that officials who try to keep the game moving without offering explanations are doing a "bad" job. Yet, there are plenty of little opportunities to use a teaching moment to the benefit of the player, without the game being slowed down even noticeably. I, for one, will continue to take advantage of them (but not on EVERY SINGLE call). [/B]
I think you are taking it too far yourself. It still is not in my job description to "teach." Regardless of what level, if I am asked a question I will allow anyone to approach me and ask questions. But I am not going to explain most or even many calls. That is what the coach is for. The coach has that responsibility to his or her team. If one team is always asking questions and I am explaining every single call or many of them, what does that look like. Especially if the other team does not need that teaching. You have to understand if you are always teaching, you are getting away from your first responsibility of officiating.

Look, we are not going to agree. I do all levels, in 4 sports. If you spend that time teaching you are going to be precieved as weak or as being bias. Everyone is looking at you and will treat you based on how your behavior is precieved. This is just the facts of the officiating game. After that game is over, I have no problem answering questions, especially at the lowest of levels. But even then the objective on the coaches and players are not to get your "coaching" ability, they want to tell you how wrong you are about a rule that they do not understand. And usually they do not understand because they go by what they see on TV (college and pro rules) rather than what the rules they are under.

Look, I have done Pop Warner Football, LL Baseball, 5th and 6th grade basketball. It always seems at these levels that teaching is not what the coaches and players want. They want to b***h for the most part without understanding a thing.
__________________
Let us get into "Good Trouble."
-----------------------------------------------------------
Charles Michael “Mick” Chambers (1947-2010)
Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools
Display Modes Rate This Thread
Rate This Thread:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:49pm.



Search Engine Friendly URLs by vBSEO 3.3.0 RC1