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-   -   two steps before shooting? (https://forum.officiating.com/basketball/2020-two-steps-before-shooting.html)

C rabby Thu Mar 22, 2001 05:42pm

I am curious where in the NCAA rules book it states that a player can take two steps before shooting. For example, a layup. Thanks in advance for any help; you guys are awesome!

BktBallRef Thu Mar 22, 2001 05:54pm

Quote:

Originally posted by C rabby
I am curious where in the NCAA rules book it states that a player can take two steps before shooting. For example, a layup. Thanks in advance for any help; you guys are awesome!
It doesn't.

Typically, what happens in a layup is that the player catches the ball or ceases to dribble while both feet are off the floor. The next foot to touch the floor is the pivot. The second step is by the non-pivot foot. It's then legal for the player to pick up the pivot foot and jump off the non-pivot foot and shoot, prior to returning the pivot to the floor.

mick Thu Mar 22, 2001 05:55pm

Quote:

Originally posted by C rabby
I am curious where in the NCAA rules book it states that a player can take two steps before shooting. For example, a layup. Thanks in advance for any help; you guys are awesome!
C,
It certainly doesn't. We have to establish when the player has actual control of the ball, and then which foot/feet are on the floor. After having control, then we determine the pivot may not touch the floor after being lifted.
mick

rainmaker Fri Mar 23, 2001 03:05am

Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Typically, what happens in a layup is that the player catches the ball or ceases to dribble while both feet are off the floor.
I agree that this is how it is usually interpreted, but I disagree that this is what is actually happening. Increasingly, in the last couple of years, kids are catching the ball, or ending the dribble with one foot, or even both feet on the floor AND THEN TAKING TWO MORE STEPS! Sorry to yell; I'm feeling a little emotional on this subject, since it hurt me in an eval recently. If you start watching the lay-ups (NCAA) in slo-mo and carefully observe when the dribbler "scoops up" the ball, you will see A LOT of travelling that doesn't get called. There may be a good reason for not calling it, but my feeling is that it is ignored not no-called. In high school, I feel this should be called every time, but it isn't and if I want to move up, I'm going to have to do some hard thinking about how to handle this.

Suppref Fri Mar 23, 2001 08:05am

I say call it..
 
Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Typically, what happens in a layup is that the player catches the ball or ceases to dribble while both feet are off the floor.
I agree that this is how it is usually interpreted, but I disagree that this is what is actually happening. Increasingly, in the last couple of years, kids are catching the ball, or ending the dribble with one foot, or even both feet on the floor AND THEN TAKING TWO MORE STEPS! Sorry to yell; I'm feeling a little emotional on this subject, since it hurt me in an eval recently. If you start watching the lay-ups (NCAA) in slo-mo and carefully observe when the dribbler "scoops up" the ball, you will see A LOT of travelling that doesn't get called. There may be a good reason for not calling it, but my feeling is that it is ignored not no-called. In high school, I feel this should be called every time, but it isn't and if I want to move up, I'm going to have to do some hard thinking about how to handle this.

I call this every time. I had a vet say to me once that I should have let it go, I told him that it was a travel and if it comes down to a 1 point game then an advantage was gained. Since I cannot prdict the outcome of a game I call it when it happens. I get in less trouble for blowing my whistle than I do for not blowing it.

BktBallRef Fri Mar 23, 2001 09:26am

Quote:

Originally posted by rainmaker
Quote:

Originally posted by BktBallRef
Typically, what happens in a layup is that the player catches the ball or ceases to dribble while both feet are off the floor.
I agree that this is how it is usually interpreted, but I disagree that this is what is actually happening.

I said typicallly this is what happens. I didn't say it happened every time and when it doesn't, it's traveling. When it happens, blow your whistle, raise your hand, and roll your wrists.

CoachB Fri Mar 23, 2001 11:18am

I totally agree with this.

"Since I cannot predict the outcome of a game I call
it when it happens. I get in less trouble for
blowing my whistle than I do for not blowing it."
__________________
Have fun - Suppref


At the lower levels I believe kids get bad habits because things are not called and explained. They think it is OK because they get away with it 95 percent of the time.

The NBA has given them an example of a travel they all think is OK. It is upon a dive to the basket in traffic where they pick up the dribble, hop, and then take two steps. This makes the highlight film in the NBA but I always try to get this called as a travel when I am coaching. I explain it to the refs that you can not jump into the air and then take 2 steps. A jump stop is acceptable but not the 2 steps to the basket.

williebfree Fri Mar 23, 2001 11:47am

Thanks Coach....
 
I volunteered to help with the 4th & 5th Grade intermural program at my kids' school.... and am constantly explaining the call... and for the most part, the parents have been supportive.

This is the level where they need to build these fundamentals.

JRutledge Fri Mar 23, 2001 01:21pm

Not our job
 
Quote:

Originally posted by CoachB
At the lower levels I believe kids get bad habits because things are not called and explained. They think it is OK because they get away with it 95 percent of the time.
[/B]
It is not our responisbility to explain calls at any level. If a kid asks I will explain the lower the level, I have no problem telling them what they can and cannot do and what they did at that point. But it is not our responsibility to explain any rule, it is our responsibility to call violations and fouls when they happen. And you also must understand that many of the lower levels do not always have "competent" officials. So expecting a good explaination, might be asking too much.

C rabby Fri Mar 23, 2001 01:39pm

Thanks, y'all!! I kinda thought that was how it was done, pivot to non pivot and the shot. I just wanted to check and see if I was missing something. Go Terps!! :)

Hawks Coach Fri Mar 23, 2001 02:24pm

Re: Not our job
 
Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
Quote:

Originally posted by CoachB
At the lower levels I believe kids get bad habits because things are not called and explained. They think it is OK because they get away with it 95 percent of the time.
It is not our responisbility to explain calls at any level. If a kid asks I will explain the lower the level, I have no problem telling them what they can and cannot do and what they did at that point. But it is not our responsibility to explain any rule, it is our responsibility to call violations and fouls when they happen. And you also must understand that many of the lower levels do not always have "competent" officials. So expecting a good explaination, might be asking too much. [/B]
Technically true jrut, no rule says you have to explain. But we are in the elementary teaching business here at the lower levels. Frequently, referees are explaining calls at the these levels, to the benefit of the young players. And it usually doesn't matter the level of the official, because we are not talking about elaborate interpretations of subsections of rules - we're talking double dribble, travelling, and 3 seconds (which is usually 10 seconds) in rec leagues. Above the lowest levels, make the call and get on with it. Let the coaches teach their players.

Todd VandenAkker Fri Mar 23, 2001 03:03pm

I agree completely, Hawks Coach! While I seldom do much ball at the lower levels anymore, I do a bunch at this time of year for some AAU tournaments. A couple reasons I enjoy doing these kids' games so much is that 1) they rarely react to a call they didn't understand, and 2)I often get comments of appreciation from parents for explaining the basic calls to the kids. The kids seldom ask, "What did I do?" but they are almost always ready to listen to a quick explanation. It's all about teaching and learning for those kids, so I see no reason why we as officials can't, and shouldn't, be part of that process. Now for SOME of the PARENTS . . . that's a different story.

JRutledge Fri Mar 23, 2001 03:20pm

Re: Explaining things.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Hawks Coach
At the lower levels I believe kids get bad habits because things are not called and explained. They think it is OK because they get away with it 95 percent of the time.
[/B]
Technically true jrut, no rule says you have to explain. But we are in the elementary teaching business here at the lower levels. Frequently, referees are explaining calls at the these levels, to the benefit of the young players. And it usually doesn't matter the level of the official, because we are not talking about elaborate interpretations of subsections of rules - we're talking double dribble, travelling, and 3 seconds (which is usually 10 seconds) in rec leagues. Above the lowest levels, make the call and get on with it. Let the coaches teach their players.

[/B][/QUOTE]

Again, you are missing the point. I understand that officials explain more at the lower levels, but you can only explain so much. You cannot explain every travel, every carry, every out of bounds calls. It is the responsibility of the coaches to know the rules and teach the rules to the kids that play for them. It is not the responsibility to stop play or not continue play because a kid cannot understand why he/she carried the ball. Officials in a basketball game make so many decisions, are you expecting us to explain all none calls too? I am an official, not a coach. You have coach as your title, use it, I just call fouls and violations and manage the game. I am not there to teach.

Obviously if I have a young person whether I am doing varsity or 5th and 6th grade game, and one of those players comes up to me an asks a question about something, I am going to talk to them. If they come in the right tone I will answer their question, regardless of if it is the captain or not. But I am not going to call a travel and because I have to go down court, stop doing that and explain in detail why the kid travelled. We need to keep the game moving, and explaining everything is not going to help.



Todd VandenAkker Fri Mar 23, 2001 03:59pm

Re: Re: Explaining things.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by JRutledge
Again, you are missing the point. I understand that officials explain more at the lower levels, but you can only explain so much. You cannot explain every travel, every carry, every out of bounds calls. .... Officials in a basketball game make so many decisions, are you expecting us to explain all none calls too? I am an official, not a coach .... I am not there to teach.

I am not going to call a travel and because I have to go down court, stop doing that and explain in detail why the kid travelled. We need to keep the game moving, and explaining everything is not going to help.

Rut, I think you're carrying this thing much farther than anyone intended. Of COURSE we're not going to explain everything or take a lot of time doing so, thereby slowing down the game significantly. But I've seen refs do a bit of "teaching," and I've seen refs make calls where the kids stand there bewildered because they have no clue what happened. In my experience, the first types of refs are much more appreciated and have better-managed games. That doesn't mean that officials who try to keep the game moving without offering explanations are doing a "bad" job. Yet, there are plenty of little opportunities to use a teaching moment to the benefit of the player, without the game being slowed down even noticeably. I, for one, will continue to take advantage of them (but not on EVERY SINGLE call).

JRutledge Fri Mar 23, 2001 06:37pm

Re: I hope I do not have to say this again.
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Todd VandenAkker
Rut, I think you're carrying this thing much farther than anyone intended. Of COURSE we're not going to explain everything or take a lot of time doing so, thereby slowing down the game significantly. But I've seen refs do a bit of "teaching," and I've seen refs make calls where the kids stand there bewildered because they have no clue what happened. In my experience, the first types of refs are much more appreciated and have better-managed games. That doesn't mean that officials who try to keep the game moving without offering explanations are doing a "bad" job. Yet, there are plenty of little opportunities to use a teaching moment to the benefit of the player, without the game being slowed down even noticeably. I, for one, will continue to take advantage of them (but not on EVERY SINGLE call). [/B]
I think you are taking it too far yourself. It still is not in my job description to "teach." Regardless of what level, if I am asked a question I will allow anyone to approach me and ask questions. But I am not going to explain most or even many calls. That is what the coach is for. The coach has that responsibility to his or her team. If one team is always asking questions and I am explaining every single call or many of them, what does that look like. Especially if the other team does not need that teaching. You have to understand if you are always teaching, you are getting away from your first responsibility of officiating.

Look, we are not going to agree. I do all levels, in 4 sports. If you spend that time teaching you are going to be precieved as weak or as being bias. Everyone is looking at you and will treat you based on how your behavior is precieved. This is just the facts of the officiating game. After that game is over, I have no problem answering questions, especially at the lowest of levels. But even then the objective on the coaches and players are not to get your "coaching" ability, they want to tell you how wrong you are about a rule that they do not understand. And usually they do not understand because they go by what they see on TV (college and pro rules) rather than what the rules they are under.

Look, I have done Pop Warner Football, LL Baseball, 5th and 6th grade basketball. It always seems at these levels that teaching is not what the coaches and players want. They want to b***h for the most part without understanding a thing.


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