Mechanics question

[bossman72]

In 2 man mechanics, why are we in the C position with bases loaded or runners at 2nd and 3rd or runner on 3rd only?

Our chapter goes by CCA mechanics, and I'm trying to enforce "doing what the book says" to promote consistency within the chapter, but the old timers do have some good points and I really can't justify why we are in the C position for those plays.

Their argument is that they can see the pickoff at third fine from the C position and are in better position for a double play from B since the ball rarely gets thrown to third.

I like to know the "why" of our mechanics and not tell the guys "we do it because the book says to do it this way". So, can you guys help me with the justification of putting the BU in C for those situations?

Thanks!

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by bossman72

In 2 man mechanics, why are we in the C position with bases loaded or runners at 2nd and 3rd or runner on 3rd only?

Our chapter goes by CCA mechanics, and I'm trying to enforce "doing what the book says" to promote consistency within the chapter, but the old timers do have some good points and I really can't justify why we are in the C position for those plays.

Their argument is that they can see the pickoff at third fine from the C position and are in better position for a double play from B since the ball rarely gets thrown to third.

I like to know the "why" of our mechanics and not tell the guys "we do it because the book says to do it this way". So, can you guys help me with the justification of putting the BU in C for those situations?

Thanks!

What position would you suggest is better than C in either of these positions? (The only variance that makes any sense only makes sense at 10U B-ball, when they can't steal home). Normal ball, C is where you're in the best position to see any and all of the possible plays.

[Justme561]

Originally Posted by bossman72

In 2 man mechanics, why are we in the C position with bases loaded or runners at 2nd and 3rd or runner on 3rd only?

Our chapter goes by CCA mechanics, and I'm trying to enforce "doing what the book says" to promote consistency within the chapter, but the old timers do have some good points and I really can't justify why we are in the C position for those plays.

Their argument is that they can see the pickoff at third fine from the C position and are in better position for a double play from B since the ball rarely gets thrown to third.

I like to know the "why" of our mechanics and not tell the guys "we do it because the book says to do it this way". So, can you guys help me with the justification of putting the BU in C for those situations?

Thanks!

I guess I would have to ask, why would you want to be in "B" over "C"?

I've worked for leagues that let you pick between B & C with a runner on 3rd only with 2 outs. The logic is that the play for the 3rd out will most likely be at first....BUT not always! I work from "C" though, old habit I guess.

[cbfoulds]

The why, IMO, is based on a combination of three maxim/ norms:

1 base/ runner: 1 umpire

Bracket the runner(s): 1 umpire on either end of any possible play/ pickle

Lead runner is most important: one umpire HAS TO see/ be in optimal position to call plays/ events [tag-ups and touches, as well as bangers] on the lead runner.

With fewer than 4 umpires, positioning will always be a compromise.

2-man mech. puts BU in C with a runner on 2d or 3d only because it is the best compromise of the foregoing three principles. "Easiest for the umpires', sometimes refered to as "where the ball is most likely to go" is only a consideration in positioning BEFORE the ball is hit w/ R1/3, where, usually, the preference is for "B", as a attempt to pick R1 is much more common than a throw to get R3.

That said, I'm OK with, "because the f#@%ing book says so, and that's how we're doing it, OK?" with the "veterans".

[bossman72]

They like to be in B position in those situations because you get a better look at the play at first and for bases loaded you get a better look at the 6-4-3 / 4-6-3 double play, which is the one that happens 90% of the time.

I tend to agree with bases loaded... no idea why we're in C. 2nd and 3rd or 3rd only is debatable for B and C

[jicecone]

Bottom line here is three things:

1. Get the call right.
2. Be in position to get the call right.
3. Get the call right.

Whether your in the A, B,C, D, E F or G position, you shouldn't park yourself there anyway. There is nothing wrong with moving the legs and always trying to improve your position, just come to a stop and make your call.

In two man mechanics I would reccomend the position that accomplsihes the above. The why is a matter of who you talk to or the manual you read (for two man mechanics).

[UmpTTS43]

Pre-pitch positioning is based on the likelyhood of a particular play on a non-batted ball. That being said, with R3, R2R3 or bases loaded, the most likely play happening under that senario is a back pick from F2 to F5 on R3. Once the ball is batted, the umpire is responsible for being in proper position for any subsequant plays. The reason many "old timers" don't like this is because they can't move their *** when required.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by jicecone

Bottom line here is three things:

1. Get the call right.
2. Be in position to get the call right.
3. Get the call right.

Whether your in the A, B,C, D, E F or G position, you shouldn't park yourself there anyway. There is nothing wrong with moving the legs and always trying to improve your position, just come to a stop and make your call.

In two man mechanics I would recommend the position that accomplishes the above. The why is a matter of who you talk to or the manual you read (for two man mechanics).

+1.

I like C for bases loaded (sometimes), R1/R2, R2/R3, and R3 only. I'm moving on every play into position, and I'm never in either "B" or "C" once the ball is hit. It is merely a starting point, and C is a much better starting point for R3 only, and is a personal preference with bases loaded, depending on which I feel comfortable in based on who is batting and the situation. I am every bit as close on a 6-4-3 DP as someone starting in B, because I know how to move around the diamond properly.

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

I am every bit as close on a 6-4-3 DP as someone starting in B, because I know how to move around the diamond properly.

You must be the only one

I've been to two clinics run by professional umpires, and this wasn't even close to what was taught.

It sounds like you must run for C to B, and make your calls on the run.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

You must be the only one

I've been to two clinics run by professional umpires, and this wasn't even close to what was taught.

It sounds like you must run for C to B, and make your calls on the run.

Well, that's nice and all. I learned from professionals as well. What were you taught? Why don't you mention that, instead of just criticizing all the time? I am set for all my calls. You need to see me umpire before you say asinine, ridiculous statements. If I'm in C and it is going to be a 6-4-3 or 4-6-3 DP, I do move rapidly toward B when the ball is hit, and stop in perfect position to see the play at 2nd, and I then signal the out as I drift over to the B area (as was taught by pro umpires), which is about 3 or 4 good steps, then turning with the throw and setting to see play at first. Excellent position to see both plays. I am all about getting the best angles and distance I can get out of every play in order to be in good position. Damn, why am always forced to explain things to you?

I don't start in B, turn around, call play at 2nd, turn toward 1st, and call play at first. Why, is that how you were taught? I don't start in C and just stand there to call both plays. Why, is that how you were taught?

[Steven Tyler]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Well, that's nice and all. I learned from professionals as well. What were you taught? Why don't you mention that, instead of just criticizing all the time? I am set for all my calls. You need to see me umpire before you say asinine, ridiculous statements. If I'm in C and it is going to be a 6-4-3 or 4-6-3 DP, I do move rapidly toward B when the ball is hit, and stop in perfect position to see the play at 2nd, and I then signal the out as I drift over to the B area (as was taught by pro umpires), which is about 3 or 4 good steps, then turning with the throw and setting to see play at first. Excellent position to see both plays. I am all about getting the best angles and distance I can get out of every play in order to be in good position. Damn, why am always forced to explain things to you?

I don't start in B, turn around, call play at 2nd, turn toward 1st, and call play at first. Why, is that how you were taught? I don't start in C and just stand there to call both plays. Why, is that how you were taught?

First of all, you needn't get so defensive. Second of all, you needn't be so insulting in the process either. Discuss, don't debase.

They showed us how to step back with one foot depending on which side of us the ball was hit, turn, step and set for the play at 2B. Then how to turn, step, and set for the throw to 1B. AT NO TIME WAS THERE ANY MENTION OF HAVING TO MOVE FROM C TO B. They teach angle over distance.

Perhaps you could post some video of yourself doing all these remarkable deeds. Could you possibly provide us about 15 minutes of instructions on You Tube? I think myself and others would like to see what they're missing.

Personally, I'd bet dollars to donuts my mechanics on the field exceed yours in each and every way. Know your role, player.

[thumpferee]

I was asking myself the day other while I was in B with R1, "why am I here"?

I get deep, into the cut, and find myself straight lined. I know, move up. But them balls come a little faster when hit the older I get. Anyway, I was thinking in C, my angle would be better.

Is this wrong? Or just stay in B and quit thinking so much?

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Steven Tyler

First of all, you needn't get so defensive. Second of all, you needn't be so insulting in the process either. Discuss, don't debase.

They showed us how to step back with one foot depending on which side of us the ball was hit, turn, step and set for the play at 2B. Then how to turn, step, and set for the throw to 1B. AT NO TIME WAS THERE ANY MENTION OF HAVING TO MOVE FROM C TO B. They teach angle over distance.

Perhaps you could post some video of yourself doing all these remarkable deeds. Could you possibly provide us about 15 minutes of instructions on You Tube? I think myself and others would like to see what they're missing.

Personally, I'd bet dollars to donuts my mechanics on the field exceed yours in each and every way. Know your role, player.

Trust me sonny, I would get the dollars, and you'd be eating the donuts. I am very sharp, both in appearance and mechanics. I am a highly respected umpire in my current association, as I was in my former.

Do you not see how your posts are insulting from the very start? Pretty easy to get defensive when you constantly start the arguments.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by thumpferee

I was asking myself the day other while I was in B with R1, "why am I here"?

I get deep, into the cut, and find myself straight lined. I know, move up. But them balls come a little faster when hit the older I get. Anyway, I was thinking in C, my angle would be better.

Is this wrong? Or just stay in B and quit thinking so much?

This is a great explanation from Richard Seigel on another forum that explains this in great detail, and is the way I do it as well from B, in order to get the best angle.

You're at B. You read that R1 is stealing. Stand up and "open the gate," IOW, pivot on your LF and stand with your shoulders in a parrallel line with a line from HP to 2B. Keep your eye on the ball at all times right now. If you can see the ball it won't hit you because you can move out of the way of the throw if the ball is thrown at you. As F2 begins to throw use cross steps and begin moving back toward 2B base. Keep your eye on the ball! Yes, you're looking back at HP while walking toward 2B. It takes some practice. As the throw is airbourne track the trajectory of the thow. If it is coming at you get out of the way! If it is a good throw that is going to the base, as the ball reaches the spot on the field where you are, IOW, its even with your position, turn your body as the ball passes turn your attention to the flieder's glove of the guy covering at the bag and wait for the ball to show up. You can't keep your eye on the ball the whole way from F2 to 2B because you'll lose sight of it as it whizzes by you. As you are moving back towards the base, walk, don't run. You might get your legs cross-crossed and trip over your own feet. (That won't look professional.) And you don't want to end up too close to the base right on top of the play. If you get too close the play will explode on you. The idea place to be is right on the edge of the grass cut-out by 2B, about 10-12 feet from the play.

Reference: Richard Seigel, ABUA forum, Mechanics section.

[UmpTTS43]

All pro umpires are taught to move from C to B on the front end of a double play. If you can't make it, pro baseball does not have a job for you. I am able to get from C to B, make my mental decision, make the call as I drop step creating my angle at first, come set and make the call at first. Umpires that are unable to move on the diamond kill grass and drive me batty.