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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 06, 2005, 06:29am
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Last night, JV game, Its windy as hell (which may have helped the little bit of confusion), I have the bases. R1, 1 out, batter tips a ball with a little bit of an arc on it directly to the catchers glove. The catcher gloves it. I see no signal from the PU but the catcher fires down to 1st base. F3 takes the throw on the bag but attempts a swipe tag which is way too late. I signal safe, catcher and pitcher say he didn't beat the ball to the bag. I then realize what may have happened and ask PU if he ruled catch or foul tip. He did indeed rule catch, I then had a retouch situation and banged the runner. The coach came out to discuss it (he was a little heated at first), once we told him what had happened he understood it and we played on. We got the call right. Between innings before going out to my position in short right field, he told me he did call catch, but didn't signal it until after I had pivoted with the ball. I didn't hear the "catch" call due to the wind I'd imagine (F3 didn't hear it either apparently, he attempted a swipe tag). The catch/foul tip call could have gone either way. What would you guys have done in that situation? I try to get my own calls when I can, going for help when needed. Should I have went to the PU before I made my call?

#2.

2 man mechanincs me being in A position. Last night I had 2 instances where I came in and set to call the play at 1, and the throw got away from F3. Both times the play was close, and the throws weren't that bad. I couldn't cut in front of the runner because he was rounding at the time the ball got away. I waited and made sure he touched first, then cut behind him into the alley and took him to second that way. I'm in fairly good shape and quick enough to get into a good position and gain the angle at 2. Is there a better way to take the runner to 2 in this situation?
  #2 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 06, 2005, 07:11am
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Quote:
Originally posted by aevans410
Last night, JV game, Its windy as hell (which may have helped the little bit of confusion), I have the bases. R1, 1 out, batter tips a ball with a little bit of an arc on it directly to the catchers glove. The catcher gloves it. I see no signal from the PU but the catcher fires down to 1st base. F3 takes the throw on the bag but attempts a swipe tag which is way too late. I signal safe, catcher and pitcher say he didn't beat the ball to the bag. I then realize what may have happened and ask PU if he ruled catch or foul tip. He did indeed rule catch, I then had a retouch situation and banged the runner. The coach came out to discuss it (he was a little heated at first), once we told him what had happened he understood it and we played on. We got the call right. Between innings before going out to my position in short right field, he told me he did call catch, but didn't signal it until after I had pivoted with the ball. I didn't hear the "catch" call due to the wind I'd imagine (F3 didn't hear it either apparently, he attempted a swipe tag). The catch/foul tip call could have gone either way. What would you guys have done in that situation? I try to get my own calls when I can, going for help when needed. Should I have went to the PU before I made my call?

#2.

2 man mechanincs me being in A position. Last night I had 2 instances where I came in and set to call the play at 1, and the throw got away from F3. Both times the play was close, and the throws weren't that bad. I couldn't cut in front of the runner because he was rounding at the time the ball got away. I waited and made sure he touched first, then cut behind him into the alley and took him to second that way. I'm in fairly good shape and quick enough to get into a good position and gain the angle at 2. Is there a better way to take the runner to 2 in this situation?
It sounds to me like your partner got caught with is pants at his knees and was afraid to fess up. A "little bit of arc", sounds different than NFHS 2-6-2, "A fly ball is a batted ball which travels an appreciable height above the ground." When caught, your partner should be announcing and out or catch. Then you would have known to react differently on the throw to first. Then again, you were able to convince the coach that everything was according to Hoyle. Had to been there!!!!

"Is there a better way to take the runner to 2 in this situation?" In NYC they will tell you to use the "A" train. In reality, most of the time your not going to get in front of the runner safely. Let them pass and head for the area behind the mound, always working to get the best angle from where you anticipate that throw. Which, probably in most cases isn't coming anyway. I usually head for that area, pivot and open myself to where the ball is, and look for the throw as I am getting a better angle.

  #3 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 06, 2005, 07:28am
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I agree with the HTBT aspect of my play. I can say that if I had the dish, I would have called it a foul tip, it just didn't seem to me to be high enough to be a fly ball. It was barely over (if at all) the batters head. I didn't discuss how he determined it a fly ball, maybe I should have hehe.

What you described is exactly how I took the runner to 2. At least my partner had the good sense enough to see I was hung out to dry and communicated to me he had third. I think the first scenario was just a brain cramp. The guy was a solid umpire with really good communication.

Thank you very much for your input.
  #4 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 06, 2005, 07:38am
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Quote:
Originally posted by aevans410
I agree with the HTBT aspect of my play. I can say that if I had the dish, I would have called it a foul tip, it just didn't seem to me to be high enough to be a fly ball. It was barely over (if at all) the batters head. I didn't discuss how he determined it a fly ball, maybe I should have hehe.

The batter's head has nothing to do with this play. If the ball went "sharply and directly" to the catcher's mitt, it was a foul tip. If it didn't, it was not a foul tip and an out. As described ("a little bit of an arc") it was an out.
  #5 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 06, 2005, 07:49am
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With that description Bob, I'd say the out call was proper, I just wish I would have seen a signal.

I'll know what to call next time I see it now also, thanks.
  #6 (permalink)  
Old Wed Apr 06, 2005, 09:43am
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PU should verbalize a strong and clear "Catch" or "Batter's OUT" on this play to avoid the confusion. Sounds like he didn't really "decide" it was a catch until you asked him.
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Old Wed Apr 06, 2005, 08:37pm
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#2.

2 man mechanincs me being in A position. Last night I had 2 instances where I came in and set to call the play at 1, and the throw got away from F3. Both times the play was close, and the throws weren't that bad. I couldn't cut in front of the runner because he was rounding at the time the ball got away. I waited and made sure he touched first, then cut behind him into the alley and took him to second that way. I'm in fairly good shape and quick enough to get into a good position and gain the angle at 2. Is there a better way to take the runner to 2 in this situation? [/B][/QUOTE]

As plate umpire in this situation I'm coming up the first base line to help with pulled foot or swipe tag. In the event that my partner (for whatever reason) is unable to cover second as PU I'm now able to take BR into second. Similar to FU in A position going out on a fly ball. PU has BR into second etc. I cover this possibility in my pregame.
  #8 (permalink)  
Old Thu Apr 07, 2005, 06:34pm
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Foul Tip or Catch for an Out

It just seems to me that in HS ball, most pitchers throw with enough speed that a foul tip is about all you can call in this sitch. I have played F2 at all levels of play and can't remember having the speed and ability to move quickly enough to catch the ball if the direction of the pitch is changed in any appreciable amount. I would require a visible arc to call the batter out. If it is the 3rd strike then the batter is out but with less than 2 strikes, I'm generally going to rule it a foul tip and require that the baserunner be tagged out just as a swing and a miss or called strike. Just my opinion.
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  #9 (permalink)  
Old Sun May 11, 2008, 11:53pm
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Me thinks Foul Tip

I'm with Stripes. After over 25 years of officiating, I don't think I have ever seen a pitched baseball that a batter hit such that it went to a barely perceptible height and could be caught on a falling arc by the catcher.

The poster even adds to the confusion by saying "a little bit of an arc on it directly to the catchers glove." "Directly" sounds like foul tip and R1 needed to be tagged. 'Directly' and 'bit of an arc' are mutually exclusive (unless it was a slowpitch softball game).

Had To Be There.

As for situation #2, why come in and buttonhook? Continue to 2nd outside the basepath and position yourself, if you are expecting a throw so everything is in front of you - ball, front edge of base and runner.

You will be 10 feet behind if the runner continues to 3rd. But these kind of plays don't develop in an instant - you should be able to see what is happening and expect where the play, if any, will ocur.

If I am expecting the runner to continue to 3rd, I would begin following outside the base path and cut behind the runner as he approaches 2nd, short-cutting my way to 3rd. Absolutely no button-hook piroutte.

Now, regretfully, I have placed myself with the base and runner in front of me but the incoming throw comes from behind me. Unless your are an olympic sprinter, I don't think you're going to make the extra 20-30 feet before the runner, by staying outside the basepaths. Of course your partner should see this developing situation (you being well behind the play) and should have made his way up to 3rd for the impending call.

Button-hooking is not always an advantage and it is not always necessary.

Staying outside the basepath can also be a good tactic with a double to left field.
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  #10 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 12, 2008, 07:52am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTownTonyBrown
I'm with Stripes.
The thread has been dormant for 3+ years. Let it die.
  #11 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 12, 2008, 09:19am
rei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gordon30307
#2.


As plate umpire in this situation I'm coming up the first base line to help with pulled foot or swipe tag. In the event that my partner (for whatever reason) is unable to cover second as PU I'm now able to take BR into second. Similar to FU in A position going out on a fly ball. PU has BR into second etc. I cover this possibility in my pregame.
Great! So, who is following the passed ball that might go out of play?

For this play situation, if I didn't feel I could build any kind of decent angle for the play at second, I would not cross the base path at all, instead, would elect to go to the outfield side between 1st and 2nd and get the best angle/distance I could. You should be able to at least build some decent angle.

I believe this is called "rimming" the infield. (yeah yeah, let's leave the nasty jokes out guys...trying to have a serious discussion here! )

As to the "appreciable arc" deal, I would say I would have had to have been there. My thought is that there is NO FREAKIN' WAY a catcher can stay squatted and catch a pitched ball from 60' away WITHOUT it going directly to his glove from deflecting on the bat. The physics just don't work out any other way! In 22 years of umpiring, I have NEVER called, nor seen called an out like this before. I have however seen thousands of foul tips.
  #12 (permalink)  
Old Mon May 12, 2008, 09:23am
rei
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DownTownTonyBrown
I'm with Stripes. After over 25 years of officiating, I don't think I have ever seen a pitched baseball that a batter hit such that it went to a barely perceptible height and could be caught on a falling arc by the catcher.

The poster even adds to the confusion by saying "a little bit of an arc on it directly to the catchers glove." "Directly" sounds like foul tip and R1 needed to be tagged. 'Directly' and 'bit of an arc' are mutually exclusive (unless it was a slowpitch softball game).

Had To Be There.

As for situation #2, why come in and buttonhook? Continue to 2nd outside the basepath and position yourself, if you are expecting a throw so everything is in front of you - ball, front edge of base and runner.

You will be 10 feet behind if the runner continues to 3rd. But these kind of plays don't develop in an instant - you should be able to see what is happening and expect where the play, if any, will ocur.

If I am expecting the runner to continue to 3rd, I would begin following outside the base path and cut behind the runner as he approaches 2nd, short-cutting my way to 3rd. Absolutely no button-hook piroutte.

Now, regretfully, I have placed myself with the base and runner in front of me but the incoming throw comes from behind me. Unless your are an olympic sprinter, I don't think you're going to make the extra 20-30 feet before the runner, by staying outside the basepaths. Of course your partner should see this developing situation (you being well behind the play) and should have made his way up to 3rd for the impending call.

Button-hooking is not always an advantage and it is not always necessary.

Staying outside the basepath can also be a good tactic with a double to left field.
Oops. You were posting this as I was posting mine.
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