How should I have handled this

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Then I would have probably informed them that I have been umpiring since long before they were a gleam in their daddy's eye on a cold winter night.

Do not do this. The last thing any umpire wants to hear is some coach trying to say they umpire. Coaches will try anything to get an umpire to doubt themselves even if they are 100% correct. Ever heard "I have been umpiring X years" or "I have played AAA ball" followed by "I have never heard that". So don't try this tactic, it doesn't work.

Also, do not approach umpires after the game. Many bad things come from this and hardly any good things as you found out. Do it as SoCal says. Get a ruling on the field and protest the game. You achieved absolutely nothing by trying to not be a coach in this situation. Once the game is over, leave the umpires alone or get treated this way possibly. Anything pertaining to the game should be handled on the field not in the parking lot.

As for how these kids acted, well, they are kids and you may or may not see the same attitude from your own kid. I don't think it had anything to do with more than they are kids put into an authoritative role. And, now, you just questioned their calls. Yes, they may have screwed up the call(HTBT for that) but it should have been handled on the field through the rules available to you as a coach(Protest). If they show this same attitude ON THE FIELD, then talk to the UIC. You chose to approach after the game which is a "You get what you get" situation and should not have involved the UIC except for him to make sure they don't do this same thing while on the field.

[cardinalfan]

As far as the OP, some of this is just the product of u-10 baseball. There are a lot of inexperienced umpires who don't know the rules.
If you were calm as you said, there is no excuse in the way these two responded. One would hope they go check the rulebook, but more likely they are just there to pick up a part-time summer paycheck.

I wouldn't tell these youngsters that you have umpiring experience. I've been on both sides, and that won't help.
Instead, just study the book and when a play like this comes up, call time and calmly quote the rule. They still may be too immature or stubborn to change their mind, but at least they will know the correct rule for the next time.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

Do not do this. The last thing any umpire wants to hear is some coach trying to say they umpire.

"Umpire" being the operative word here. These are children, masquerading as umpires, thinking they know the rules when they don't, and disrespecting their elders. I would never use that on a "real" umpire. Besides, real umpires would know I'm an umpire in most cases.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

"Umpire" being the operative word here. These are children, masquerading as umpires, thinking they know the rules when they don't, and disrespecting their elders. I would never use that on a "real" umpire. Besides, real umpires would know I'm an umpire in most cases.

First off, I don't know a "real" umpire until they have called with me or I see them on the field during a game.

Second, what makes a "real" umpire? Their age, their appearance? If anybody puts on the uniform to put up with the crap that parents, coaches, and players dish out, then they are a real umpire. They are not masquerading b/c they are putting up with someone approaching them in the parking lot to question their judgment and not doing it during the game(where it should have been handled).

When does it begin for someone to be a "real" umpire? These kids were doing their job. They may not know it very well which comes from experience. No umpire walks on the field knowing how to umpire without experience. Listening to daddy's stories of his time on the field will only go so far. Reading the rulebook will only go so far. An umpire has to start with what they know or think they know and build from there. May be wrong in the beginning, but many get better and many don't. Instead of complaining about them, teach them or deal with what you get.

[johnnyg08]

Imagine being a skip in A ball and a couple of 19 - 22 yr old umpire school grads show up to work your minor league game. we can't bust their chops too much...esp in 10 year old ball...I'd be willing to bet in 10 yr old ball America, you'd find more "hands are part of the bat" umpires than you could shake a stick at. That being said, they can't get any better unless they're out there working..and them working that level, I can't think of a better place to learn the rules, mechanics, and dealing with the weird stuff that can happend in baseball...that's the level of ball where you see all the weird stuff. With a good instructor and a clinic or two under their belts, they will, at some point, maybe be our peers. Remember, nearly every one of us was "that new ump" at one point.

[Kevin Finnerty]

But I'd be willing to bet that whatever most of us were at 17 or 18, we weren't the level of smart-a$$ed kid that those two are, and if we were ... oh, Hell, what Steve said. The game should be respected and those officiating it should be respectful and respectable, regardless of age and level of competition. There is not a fraction of an inch of room for smart a$$es like those two in the umpiring vocation. This business of treating these children like real umpires who demand respect and should be treated like any umpire is almost laughable. Pay your dues, and do your homework and then you can begin to show an umpire's veneer and be accorded the decorum and respect that an umpire should expect.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

But I'd be willing to bet that whatever most of us were at 17 or 18, we weren't the level of smart-a$$ed kid that those two are, and if we were ... oh, Hell, what Steve said. The game should be respected and those officiating it should be respectful and respectable, regardless of age and level of competition. There is not a fraction of an inch of room for smart a$$es like those two in the umpiring vocation. This business of treating these children like real umpires who demand respect and should be treated like any umpire is almost laughable. Pay your dues, and do your homework and then you can begin to show an umpire's veneer and be accorded the decorum and respect that an umpire should expect.

Yes, exactly. When I was a young stud, if I had EVER spoken to an adult in that fashion, that said adult would have cheerfully slapped me hard, then told my dad, who would have slapped me harder.

My VP in middle school called my dad to get permission to give me what they used to call "licks," which were very hard swats with a paddle that had holes drilled in it. My dad cheerfully told him to "lay it on him!" The "board of education" it was called back in those days.

Times have changed, and sadly not for the better.

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

"Umpire" being the operative word here. These are children, masquerading as umpires, thinking they know the rules when they don't, and disrespecting their elders. I would never use that on a "real" umpire. Besides, real umpires would know I'm an umpire in most cases.

Gotta disagree here. If they're on the field, they're real umpires. I know some are better than others, but they're still 'real' umpires.

I've got to say, I'm shocked that it took until GA Umpire's initial response for anyone to go with the "no, you kicked the crap out of it, the way you handled that sitch." And that includes some veterans of this forum. On these boards, we've all heard/read/told war stories of parents/players/coaches that come out and hassle umpires after a game. How is this OP any different? jwwashburn had some calls he didn't like, but he waited until after the game to address it. I'm not saying he did it in a bad way, from the description he gave, but when the game's over, it's over - don't approach the umpires afterwards.

Why you didn't bother to speak up during the game is beyond me - at that age level, getting coaches to stay relatively quiet is much harder. And if you didn't want it addressed during the game, but wanted to speak to someone, go to the assignor or the head umpire for the league.

Again: approaching the umpire after the game to discuss/dispute calls == bad.

I think where SDS and others seem to have the problem is the age of the umpire, and that's wrong, too. We've had other youngsters on this forum, and they're usually encouraged, so what's the deal ripping these two? So they gave jwwashburn a face-full; so what? Are you guys saying that, if a coach had approached you after the game, you'd not give back some attitude? Jwwashburn opened to door to this problem, so he gets what he gets in return.

And this is said with my own 16-yo at home who has that much disrespect as the two umpires in question, and then some. And I'm still not ready to jump on the 'kid' umpires. The tone of some here sounds too much like the "You kids get off my lawn" attitude.

[jwwashburn]

TO HOKIEUMP:

I did not address it during the game because I thought the chance of them doing anything was remote. They have idiot rats chewing on them all the time. In the heat of the moment, there would be no way for them to distinguish me from an idiot rat.(be quiet Steve! I left the door wide open, I know, I know)

I approached after the game and asked "May I ask you a question?" Only then did I do it. I had hoped to encourage him to look at the book. When I saw that I was dealing with know-it-all punks, I chose to walk away. I was convinced that my approach was correct..I posted here for feedback.

Joe In Missouri

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

TO HOKIEUMP:

I did not address it during the game because I thought the chance of them doing anything was remote. They have idiot rats chewing on them all the time. In the heat of the moment, there would be no way for them to distinguish me from an idiot rat.(be quiet Steve! I left the door wide open, I know, I know)

Fair enough. I just feel that, if you wanted the call correct at the time, that's when you need to address it - at that time. If your priority is a 'learning experience,' I still submit that immediately post-game - where they still only know you as Rat, not Fellow Umpire - isn't the place. If Rats want us to "stay out of my dugout," then my reply to Rats is "stay out of my ... er, area-behind-my-trunk-where-I-change."

I approached after the game and asked "May I ask you a question?" Only then did I do it. I had hoped to encourage him to look at the book. When I saw that I was dealing with know-it-all punks, I chose to walk away. I was convinced that my approach was correct..I posted here for feedback.

And that's my feedback - don't go in that 'space' after game. If you didn't want to hear a/my dissenting opinion, don't ask the question.

Look, I have no reason to believe that you were anything but polite, from what I read on the forum. And there might have been more crap flung back at you than should have been, since you're talking about not-quite-fully-formed adults. But I think there's been a tangent or an agenda, because they weren't fully grown men - maybe not by you, but it's certainly coloured the opinions of others here. Are people saying they don't have "know-it-all punks" in their associations, of any/every age group? Really? If so, I want in YOUR group!

And even if you went in with the best of intentions, it's hard to say how THEY felt as they were changing. After some games I do, I'm not in a happy mood: either the play was miserable, I might have kicked something - or at least am unsure of something I did/didn't do - the coaches may have been right b@st@rds, it's hot, etc, etc. The last thing I want is a coach to come and ask a question, then tell me "I think it would be a good idea for you to look that up in your rules book later on." You're telling me "You need to learn the rules," no matter how nicely you've phrased it; since I haven't told you "You need to learn how to coach" - and, boy, many games offer up THAT thought in my head - then don't come telling me how to do my job.

Again, you asked for feedback in the OP, you got it.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by HokieUmp

... The last thing I want is a coach to come and ask a question, then tell me "I think it would be a good idea for you to look that up in your rules book later on." You're telling me "You need to learn the rules," no matter how nicely you've phrased it; since I haven't told you "You need to learn how to coach" - and, boy, many games offer up THAT thought in my head - then don't come telling me how to do my job.

Again, you asked for feedback in the OP, you got it.

You are applying adult standards and manly respectability to children who haven't earned a shred of it.

Joe's instinct was to make these two smart-a$$es aware of some of what they need to learn to merely function in the role that they are already pretending to fill and maybe help them stop cheating little kids with their shoddy, uninformed work. Any experienced umpire who offers any beginner some umpiring tips should be received respectfully and without hesitation.

An experienced adult umpire being approached at the car by a coach is an entirely different situation. For that, there is an established standard that is not in place for children posing as umpires.

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

You are applying adult standards and manly respectability to children who haven't earned a shred of it.

Joe's instinct was to make these two smart-a$$es aware of some of what they need to learn to merely function in the role that they are already pretending to fill and maybe help them stop cheating little kids with their shoddy, uninformed work. Any experienced umpire who offers any beginner some umpiring tips should be received respectfully and without hesitation.

Wow. Seriously, you have some hostility issues with America's youth, mate.

One, I don't think Joe felt they were smart-asses, and they were "pretenders" and they were "cheating little kids" BEFORE he approached them - that sounds more like your emotions painting the post.

Two, no where in Joe's OP says that he approached them as an "experienced umpire" offering "umpiring tips." IIRC, he asked if could ask a question, but did not ID himself. So again, you're looking to just hammer these kids because they're, well, kids.

KF, if a coach - again, Joe was a COACH and not ID'd otherwise - had come to you and, in the course of the discussion, said "you should learn the rules" in so many words, would you have liked it, and said "why, I'll take that on board!"? Really?

An experienced adult umpire being approached at the car by a coach is an entirely different situation. For that, there is an established standard that is not in place for children posing as umpires.

Yeah, and it's called when-the-coach-comes-to-your-car-after-the-game-to-b!tch-you-tell-him-to-eff-off.

If this was truly meant to be a learning experience, go to the assignor or the UIC of the league, and voice concerns.

You're acting as though only those under 21 f--- up OBS calls. And you're acting like that scary guy at the end of the block who has a 40-year collection of balls, bikes, kites, etc. from the neighborhood children.

[archangel]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

Joe's instinct was to make these two smart-a$$es aware of some of what they need to learn to merely function in the role that they are already pretending to fill and maybe help them stop cheating little kids with their shoddy, uninformed work. Any experienced umpire who offers any beginner some umpiring tips should be received respectfully and without hesitation.

I see 2 mistakes in the OP. The 1st is the coach approaching the umpires post game. The 2nd is the reaction from those umpires. Mistakes on both sides.

Joe posted only 2 complaints about the umpires, so "cheating little kids with their shoddy, uninformed work" is not a valid statement and over the top. I'm sure I've kicked a couple in a game once but wouldnt describe my actions like you did.

And we all have heard a coach claim "but I'm an umpire, so.." and realize that its (true or not, mostly not) just a ploy to get his way. Good umpires that coach should know to leave their officials hat at home, and not try to use that to get their way. So in this sich, Joe wasnt an experienced umpire offering tips to beginners, he was a coach, plain and simple....

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

TO HOKIEUMP:

I did not address it during the game because I thought the chance of them doing anything was remote. They have idiot rats chewing on them all the time. In the heat of the moment, there would be no way for them to distinguish me from an idiot rat.(be quiet Steve! I left the door wide open, I know, I know)

I approached after the game and asked "May I ask you a question?" Only then did I do it. I had hoped to encourage him to look at the book. When I saw that I was dealing with know-it-all punks, I chose to walk away. I was convinced that my approach was correct..I posted here for feedback.

Joe In Missouri

Joe,

You are a respectful and respectable adult, who chose to address two kids in a way that showed them more respect than they have earned, and in response to that, were addressed in a wholly inappropriate and unacceptable way. It is ludicrous to suggest that the codes and norms and traditions and privileges that apply to umpiring at the higher levels also apply to kids calling Little League games. They have earned almost no respect and deserve almost no respect, yet you showed them respect by not publicly embarrassing them and demeaning them.

You're a class guy and you should know that.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

Joe,

You are a respectful and respectable adult, who chose to address two kids in a way that showed them more respect than they have earned,

Respect does not have to be earned. It is a right as a human being, until one loses that right through action, or gains more by virtue of action or position.