How should I have handled this

[jwwashburn]

This is long and most probably boring. I want to get it right as a coach so, here goes.......

I coach my son's u-10 team. They at a a level above rec and below travel. OBR with some house rules(none that have anything to do with OBS)

Today, we had a runner rounding third tripped up by an oafish 3rd baseman, the runner fell down and was almost thrown out scampering back to third. I looked at both umpires(about 17 to 18 yrs old) Nothing at all.

The next inning, we had the bases loaded and a kid whacked one over the center fielder's head. 1B was standing on first and 2B was standing on second...the BR had to slow WAY down to avoid a crash and touch the bases. he would have had a HR for sure but had to stop at third. I kept my mouth shut.

After the game, the two young men were changing their gear. I said: "Can I ask a question?" The PU said, sure. I said, we had two incidents during the game where our runners were obstructed. I gave a quick rundown. He said, yeah I saw both plays-that is not obstruction...it was not intentional and there was no collision. I said, actually Obstruction is usually not intentional and definitely does not require a collision. I think it would be a good idea for you to look that up in your rules book later on. The other guy gave me the hand up and yelled: This conversation is OVER! Do you understand coach? I said, Yes, I understand. Even though I am completely calm and respectful and you have absolutely no authority to tell me to shut up, I am going to do so. As I walked away, the PU yelled at me from about ten feet away, we got the freaking call right I am confident in my knowledge of the rules!

One of the other coaches is on the board of the league so, he took me over to the UIC who listened and thanked us and said he would take care of it.

I promie that I am not exaggerating or leaving anything out. This is how it happened.

Did I do anything wrong?

I have been umpiring for 15+ years and the coaching thing is new to me.

Awaiting your comments....

Joe

[umpjong]

I'm OK with how you handled it. You tried, and then after no positive reaction you went to their supervisor. Had they been any younger than this I would have gone straight to their supervisor...

[Kevin Finnerty]

First of all, as a veteran umpire, you had every right in the world to school those two kids on umpiring, irrespective of your position as a coach in the league. Done elegantly, it's a benefit to the younger, inexperienced umpire to have any veteran help him with his game. Secondly, if those kids popped off like that to anyone, and took that superiority thing to that extreme, they'd be gone if I had anything to do with it. They sound like the other extreme: young, yet arrogant and closed-minded. Who needs young umpires with those qualities?

[jwwashburn]

OBS is extremely important at lower levels...injuries WILL happen unless the Umpire call this correctly.

I had to nip one of our moron parents in the bud(nod to Barney) because I heard him telling a couple of guys to just run over them next time.

If these knuckleheads don't call this correctly, some idiot dad WILL tell his idiot kid to hurt someone and he WILL do it.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

They sound like the other extreme: young, yet arrogant and closed-minded.

Not necessarily.

People placed in positions of authority have an initial problem--they now have to exert that authority, but don't have the experience to know what works and what doesn't. When this happens, they default to what they have seen others in the same position do, not realizing that the noticeable actions of those others are an irrepresentative minority and that the majority of actions taken in the exertion of authority are very small and often almost invisible. In other words, they've got to skin the cat, but the messiest way is what they remember, because it sticks out.

This has been shown with cops, military personnel achieving leadership positions for the first time, and others in similar positions. Give them time and guidance--they'll probably get better.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

OBS is extremely important at lower levels...injuries WILL happen unless they Umpires call this correctly.

I had to nip one of our moron parents in the bud(nod to Barney) because I heard him telling a couple of guys to just run over them next time.

If these knuckleheads don't call this correctly, some idiot dad WILL tell his idiot kid to hurt someone and he WILL do it.

I had a dad (former D-I first baseman) tell his son and other players stuff like that, and I have to say, "Don't tell them that; that's an illegal slide," or "You can't do that, it's obstruction." It's a joke. Plus, they're teaching kids to go after other kids. As a coach or instructor, I've had to re-train a lot of young players to run the bases legally, and make legal plays around bases when they're fielding. De-brief them is another way to put it.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by Matt

Not necessarily.

People placed in positions of authority have an initial problem--they now have to exert that authority, but don't have the experience to know what works and what doesn't. When this happens, they default to what they have seen others in the same position do, not realizing that the noticeable actions of those others are an irrepresentative minority and that the majority of actions taken in the exertion of authority are very small and often almost invisible. In other words, they've got to skin the cat, but the messiest way is what they remember, because it sticks out.

This has been shown with cops, military personnel achieving leadership positions for the first time, and others in similar positions. Give them time and guidance--they'll probably get better.

I would tend to agree if these were experienced young men, or anyone with the right to carry guns. These guys are teenagers. And they are, by this account, unacceptably disrespectful of a respectful and respectable adult. They can come back and try again when they grow up and develop a sense of respect and the respectability that comes with it.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

I had to nip one of our moron parents in the bud(nod to Barney) because I heard him telling a couple of guys to just run over them next time.

Don't forget a nod to Fred G. Sanford as well, as he would take out his bud nippers and nip it!

As far as the two yutes, I think you handled it better than I would have. I probably would have let them know in no uncertain terms that they are wet-behind-the-ears and couldn't carry my mask to the pre-game plate conference. Then I would have probably informed them that I have been umpiring since long before they were a gleam in their daddy's eye on a cold winter night. Then I probably would have asked them if they talked this way with all aduts, or was I just the lucky guy today. Then I would have talked to the UIC. Then I would have said that I don't want them ever on one of my games, and recommend disciplinary action for a couple of smart-*** kids.

I don't put up with sass from children. I would give them a "time out." I would take "time out" of my day to apply a whoopin' to their backsides (well, back in the day, maybe...)

[jwwashburn]

I figured "Insane Hockey Dad" was one way to go. I thought better of it.

I only wish that I could be there when they read the book. Of course, they don't have one and would never dream of it.

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

I would tend to agree if these were experienced young men, or anyone with the right to carry guns. These guys are teenagers. And they are, by this account, unacceptably disrespectful of a respectful and respectable adult. They can come back and try again when they grow up and develop a sense of respect and the respectability that comes with it.

No, they chose to exert authority in the wrong way. Age is irrelevant to this action--they could have been in their 20s or 40s, and this still very likely would have occurred, assuming the same level of inexperience.

How many times have we seen stories on here or other boards about adults trying to railroad young umpires? The age of the person doesn't matter in this situation--they were still the authority figure, and they felt that they had their authority challenged.

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

As far as the two yutes, I think you handled it better than I would have. I probably would have let them know in no uncertain terms that they are wet-behind-the-ears and couldn't carry my mask to the pre-game plate conference. Then I would have probably informed them that I have been umpiring since long before they were a gleam in their daddy's eye on a cold winter night. Then I probably would have asked them if they talked this way with all aduts, or was I just the lucky guy today. Then I would have talked to the UIC. Then I would have said that I don't want them ever on one of my games, and recommend disciplinary action for a couple of smart-*** kids.

I don't put up with sass from children.

You are looking at it the wrong way. They are the authority figures, not the adult coach in the conversation. While there is disrespect, there is not the social norm of elder/youth interaction.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by Matt

No, they chose to exert authority in the wrong way. Age is irrelevant to this action--they could have been in their 20s or 40s, and this still very likely would have occurred, assuming the same level of inexperience.

How many times have we seen stories on here or other boards about adults trying to railroad young umpires? The age of the person doesn't matter in this situation--they were still the authority figure, and they felt that they had their authority challenged.



You are looking at it the wrong way. They are the authority figures, not the adult coach in the conversation. While there is disrespect, there is not the social norm of elder/youth interaction.

Well, Matt, age is 1000 percent relevant to this---it's everything. They are kids and kids don't talk to men that way. Period.

Matt, you are struggling to defend the behavior of two kids, whose behavior is inexcusable in any capacity they mistakenly find themselves. You're being strangely defensive of these two youts. What's the story?

[socalblue1]

You handled this fine, though I would suggest there may be a different option. Why not go out & talk to the umpire after the 1st non-call? You would have had the answer (Same as the post game conversation). Then come the magic words "I protest".

These two would have learned a real lesson when the protest was upheld: learn the rules!. The PITA of having to write the report, go to a hearing, find out they made a huge mistake (Twice) on a very basic rule + being held accountable for same would be a valuable learning process.

[ozzy6900]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

SNIPPED

Did I do anything wrong?

I have been umpiring for 15+ years and the coaching thing is new to me.

Awaiting your comments....

Joe

No, you did nothing wrong here. You had two cases of obstruction that should have been called. Your umpires should have exhibited the same enthusiasm on the field to the game as they did in the parking lot!

Here's the problem. Interference and obstruction are both calls that require recognition and judgment before the rule can be enforced. You can protest the rule if not adhered to but the call is more judgment than anything else. You will find that many younger umpires do not properly recognize obstruction (as in your two plays) and therefore can not judge that it happened. Better training would be a help but that would have to come from their UIC, not you.

Next time you are on the field and you see this happen. I would ask for TIME and approach the umpire in a professional manner. You better ask for TIME because young umpires have a fit if you don't (unlike those of us that deal with the older crowd).

You "Excuse me, (name of umpire - not 'Blue') but I think that my runner was obstructed on that play. Did you happen to see the same thing?"

The umpire is going to give you an answer (hopefully equally professional) and you are going to live with the results. You say "Thank you" and go back to your box or dugout.

When it happens again, you do the same thing. Maybe these umpires will see a light bulb illuminate and get the idea. I would also suggest that you and the UIC discuss training the umpires better over a cup of "joe" - your treat!

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

Then I would have probably informed them that I have been umpiring since long before they were a gleam in their daddy's eye on a cold winter night.

Do not do this. The last thing any umpire wants to hear is some coach trying to say they umpire. Coaches will try anything to get an umpire to doubt themselves even if they are 100% correct. Ever heard "I have been umpiring X years" or "I have played AAA ball" followed by "I have never heard that". So don't try this tactic, it doesn't work.

Also, do not approach umpires after the game. Many bad things come from this and hardly any good things as you found out. Do it as SoCal says. Get a ruling on the field and protest the game. You achieved absolutely nothing by trying to not be a coach in this situation. Once the game is over, leave the umpires alone or get treated this way possibly. Anything pertaining to the game should be handled on the field not in the parking lot.

As for how these kids acted, well, they are kids and you may or may not see the same attitude from your own kid. I don't think it had anything to do with more than they are kids put into an authoritative role. And, now, you just questioned their calls. Yes, they may have screwed up the call(HTBT for that) but it should have been handled on the field through the rules available to you as a coach(Protest). If they show this same attitude ON THE FIELD, then talk to the UIC. You chose to approach after the game which is a "You get what you get" situation and should not have involved the UIC except for him to make sure they don't do this same thing while on the field.

[cardinalfan]

As far as the OP, some of this is just the product of u-10 baseball. There are a lot of inexperienced umpires who don't know the rules.
If you were calm as you said, there is no excuse in the way these two responded. One would hope they go check the rulebook, but more likely they are just there to pick up a part-time summer paycheck.

I wouldn't tell these youngsters that you have umpiring experience. I've been on both sides, and that won't help.
Instead, just study the book and when a play like this comes up, call time and calmly quote the rule. They still may be too immature or stubborn to change their mind, but at least they will know the correct rule for the next time.