How should I have handled this

[bob jenkins]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

I said, actually Obstruction is usually not intentional and definitely does not require a collision. I think it would be a good idea for you to look that up in your rules book later on.

I would respond better to, "I understand the rule to be that it doesn't need to be intentional and that a collision is not necessary. Can we both look that up so we're on the same page? Do you know where in the rule book I could find this?"

While you were right in this application of the rules, I have had the same conversation with coaches asking about, say, the hands being part of the bat. So, when a coach starts with, "Actually, ..." and finishes with "you need to look that up," I tend to get a little defensive.

[archangel]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

This is long and most probably boring. I want to get it right as a coach so, here goes.......

I coach my son's u-10 team. They at a a level above rec and below travel. OBR with some house rules(none that have anything to do with OBS)

Today, we had a runner rounding third tripped up by an oafish 3rd baseman, the runner fell down and was almost thrown out scampering back to third. I looked at both umpires(about 17 to 18 yrs old) Nothing at all.

The next inning, we had the bases loaded and a kid whacked one over the center fielder's head. 1B was standing on first and 2B was standing on second...the BR had to slow WAY down to avoid a crash and touch the bases. he would have had a HR for sure but had to stop at third. I kept my mouth shut.

After the game, the two young men were changing their gear. I said: "Can I ask a question?" The PU said, sure. I said, we had two incidents during the game where our runners were obstructed. I gave a quick rundown. He said, yeah I saw both plays-that is not obstruction...it was not intentional and there was no collision. I said, actually Obstruction is usually not intentional and definitely does not require a collision. I think it would be a good idea for you to look that up in your rules book later on. The other guy gave me the hand up and yelled: This conversation is OVER! Do you understand coach? I said, Yes, I understand. Even though I am completely calm and respectful and you have absolutely no authority to tell me to shut up, I am going to do so. As I walked away, the PU yelled at me from about ten feet away, we got the freaking call right I am confident in my knowledge of the rules!

One of the other coaches is on the board of the league so, he took me over to the UIC who listened and thanked us and said he would take care of it.
I promie that I am not exaggerating or leaving anything out. This is how it happened.
Did I do anything wrong?
I have been umpiring for 15+ years and the coaching thing is new to me.
Awaiting your comments....
Joe

No, I dont think you handled it right.

Do you like being approached after the game, while getting rid of the gear, by a coach who has a complaint or 2 about calls during the game? No matter how calm the coach is? Of course you dont, who does?- the game is over, time to move on!
As a coach, you should've addressed the OBS during the game.

Now as an older adult, if that happened to me, I probably would've told you that it didnt look like OBS at the time, but I might've missed it, thanks for the input (mainly just to end the conversation, knowing I'd check the rulebook later).......but thats part of "post" game management....

[archangel]

oh, and I never knew there was a level for 10 yr olds, between rec and travel ball...

[johnnyg08]

yeah, i've been 100% right before on a couple situations, most recently, the unreported substitute, and have heard..."you need to look that up..." I reply, "I know the rule, you look it up." this was adult baseball, not kiddie ball...had I been working that level, I probably would've handled it differently.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by GA Umpire

Do not do this. The last thing any umpire wants to hear is some coach trying to say they umpire.

"Umpire" being the operative word here. These are children, masquerading as umpires, thinking they know the rules when they don't, and disrespecting their elders. I would never use that on a "real" umpire. Besides, real umpires would know I'm an umpire in most cases.

[GA Umpire]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

"Umpire" being the operative word here. These are children, masquerading as umpires, thinking they know the rules when they don't, and disrespecting their elders. I would never use that on a "real" umpire. Besides, real umpires would know I'm an umpire in most cases.

First off, I don't know a "real" umpire until they have called with me or I see them on the field during a game.

Second, what makes a "real" umpire? Their age, their appearance? If anybody puts on the uniform to put up with the crap that parents, coaches, and players dish out, then they are a real umpire. They are not masquerading b/c they are putting up with someone approaching them in the parking lot to question their judgment and not doing it during the game(where it should have been handled).

When does it begin for someone to be a "real" umpire? These kids were doing their job. They may not know it very well which comes from experience. No umpire walks on the field knowing how to umpire without experience. Listening to daddy's stories of his time on the field will only go so far. Reading the rulebook will only go so far. An umpire has to start with what they know or think they know and build from there. May be wrong in the beginning, but many get better and many don't. Instead of complaining about them, teach them or deal with what you get.

[johnnyg08]

Imagine being a skip in A ball and a couple of 19 - 22 yr old umpire school grads show up to work your minor league game. we can't bust their chops too much...esp in 10 year old ball...I'd be willing to bet in 10 yr old ball America, you'd find more "hands are part of the bat" umpires than you could shake a stick at. That being said, they can't get any better unless they're out there working..and them working that level, I can't think of a better place to learn the rules, mechanics, and dealing with the weird stuff that can happend in baseball...that's the level of ball where you see all the weird stuff. With a good instructor and a clinic or two under their belts, they will, at some point, maybe be our peers. Remember, nearly every one of us was "that new ump" at one point.

[Kevin Finnerty]

But I'd be willing to bet that whatever most of us were at 17 or 18, we weren't the level of smart-a$$ed kid that those two are, and if we were ... oh, Hell, what Steve said. The game should be respected and those officiating it should be respectful and respectable, regardless of age and level of competition. There is not a fraction of an inch of room for smart a$$es like those two in the umpiring vocation. This business of treating these children like real umpires who demand respect and should be treated like any umpire is almost laughable. Pay your dues, and do your homework and then you can begin to show an umpire's veneer and be accorded the decorum and respect that an umpire should expect.

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by SanDiegoSteve

"Umpire" being the operative word here. These are children, masquerading as umpires, thinking they know the rules when they don't, and disrespecting their elders. I would never use that on a "real" umpire. Besides, real umpires would know I'm an umpire in most cases.

Gotta disagree here. If they're on the field, they're real umpires. I know some are better than others, but they're still 'real' umpires.

I've got to say, I'm shocked that it took until GA Umpire's initial response for anyone to go with the "no, you kicked the crap out of it, the way you handled that sitch." And that includes some veterans of this forum. On these boards, we've all heard/read/told war stories of parents/players/coaches that come out and hassle umpires after a game. How is this OP any different? jwwashburn had some calls he didn't like, but he waited until after the game to address it. I'm not saying he did it in a bad way, from the description he gave, but when the game's over, it's over - don't approach the umpires afterwards.

Why you didn't bother to speak up during the game is beyond me - at that age level, getting coaches to stay relatively quiet is much harder. And if you didn't want it addressed during the game, but wanted to speak to someone, go to the assignor or the head umpire for the league.

Again: approaching the umpire after the game to discuss/dispute calls == bad.

I think where SDS and others seem to have the problem is the age of the umpire, and that's wrong, too. We've had other youngsters on this forum, and they're usually encouraged, so what's the deal ripping these two? So they gave jwwashburn a face-full; so what? Are you guys saying that, if a coach had approached you after the game, you'd not give back some attitude? Jwwashburn opened to door to this problem, so he gets what he gets in return.

And this is said with my own 16-yo at home who has that much disrespect as the two umpires in question, and then some. And I'm still not ready to jump on the 'kid' umpires. The tone of some here sounds too much like the "You kids get off my lawn" attitude.

[SanDiegoSteve]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

But I'd be willing to bet that whatever most of us were at 17 or 18, we weren't the level of smart-a$$ed kid that those two are, and if we were ... oh, Hell, what Steve said. The game should be respected and those officiating it should be respectful and respectable, regardless of age and level of competition. There is not a fraction of an inch of room for smart a$$es like those two in the umpiring vocation. This business of treating these children like real umpires who demand respect and should be treated like any umpire is almost laughable. Pay your dues, and do your homework and then you can begin to show an umpire's veneer and be accorded the decorum and respect that an umpire should expect.

Yes, exactly. When I was a young stud, if I had EVER spoken to an adult in that fashion, that said adult would have cheerfully slapped me hard, then told my dad, who would have slapped me harder.

My VP in middle school called my dad to get permission to give me what they used to call "licks," which were very hard swats with a paddle that had holes drilled in it. My dad cheerfully told him to "lay it on him!" The "board of education" it was called back in those days.

Times have changed, and sadly not for the better.

[jwwashburn]

TO HOKIEUMP:

I did not address it during the game because I thought the chance of them doing anything was remote. They have idiot rats chewing on them all the time. In the heat of the moment, there would be no way for them to distinguish me from an idiot rat.(be quiet Steve! I left the door wide open, I know, I know)

I approached after the game and asked "May I ask you a question?" Only then did I do it. I had hoped to encourage him to look at the book. When I saw that I was dealing with know-it-all punks, I chose to walk away. I was convinced that my approach was correct..I posted here for feedback.

Joe In Missouri

[Matt]

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

Well, Matt, age is 1000 percent relevant to this---it's everything. They are kids and kids don't talk to men that way. Period.

You're wrong, yet again.

Originally Posted by Kevin Finnerty

Matt, you are struggling to defend the behavior of two kids, whose behavior is inexcusable in any capacity they mistakenly find themselves. You're being strangely defensive of these two youts. What's the story?

I have not defended their behavior at all.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by Matt

You're wrong, yet again.



I have not defended their behavior at all.

Okay. I'm wrong.

Children can and should talk to respectful, respectable adults the way those two addressed Mr. Washburn. According to you, Matt.

In what society is that brand of behavior welcome from kids? And what would you like us to call it as you curiously and assiduously defend the smart-a$$ed behavior of these two kids posing as umpires?

[HokieUmp]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

TO HOKIEUMP:

I did not address it during the game because I thought the chance of them doing anything was remote. They have idiot rats chewing on them all the time. In the heat of the moment, there would be no way for them to distinguish me from an idiot rat.(be quiet Steve! I left the door wide open, I know, I know)

Fair enough. I just feel that, if you wanted the call correct at the time, that's when you need to address it - at that time. If your priority is a 'learning experience,' I still submit that immediately post-game - where they still only know you as Rat, not Fellow Umpire - isn't the place. If Rats want us to "stay out of my dugout," then my reply to Rats is "stay out of my ... er, area-behind-my-trunk-where-I-change."

I approached after the game and asked "May I ask you a question?" Only then did I do it. I had hoped to encourage him to look at the book. When I saw that I was dealing with know-it-all punks, I chose to walk away. I was convinced that my approach was correct..I posted here for feedback.

And that's my feedback - don't go in that 'space' after game. If you didn't want to hear a/my dissenting opinion, don't ask the question.

Look, I have no reason to believe that you were anything but polite, from what I read on the forum. And there might have been more crap flung back at you than should have been, since you're talking about not-quite-fully-formed adults. But I think there's been a tangent or an agenda, because they weren't fully grown men - maybe not by you, but it's certainly coloured the opinions of others here. Are people saying they don't have "know-it-all punks" in their associations, of any/every age group? Really? If so, I want in YOUR group!

And even if you went in with the best of intentions, it's hard to say how THEY felt as they were changing. After some games I do, I'm not in a happy mood: either the play was miserable, I might have kicked something - or at least am unsure of something I did/didn't do - the coaches may have been right b@st@rds, it's hot, etc, etc. The last thing I want is a coach to come and ask a question, then tell me "I think it would be a good idea for you to look that up in your rules book later on." You're telling me "You need to learn the rules," no matter how nicely you've phrased it; since I haven't told you "You need to learn how to coach" - and, boy, many games offer up THAT thought in my head - then don't come telling me how to do my job.

Again, you asked for feedback in the OP, you got it.

[Kevin Finnerty]

Originally Posted by jwwashburn

TO HOKIEUMP:

I did not address it during the game because I thought the chance of them doing anything was remote. They have idiot rats chewing on them all the time. In the heat of the moment, there would be no way for them to distinguish me from an idiot rat.(be quiet Steve! I left the door wide open, I know, I know)

I approached after the game and asked "May I ask you a question?" Only then did I do it. I had hoped to encourage him to look at the book. When I saw that I was dealing with know-it-all punks, I chose to walk away. I was convinced that my approach was correct..I posted here for feedback.

Joe In Missouri

Joe,

You are a respectful and respectable adult, who chose to address two kids in a way that showed them more respect than they have earned, and in response to that, were addressed in a wholly inappropriate and unacceptable way. It is ludicrous to suggest that the codes and norms and traditions and privileges that apply to umpiring at the higher levels also apply to kids calling Little League games. They have earned almost no respect and deserve almost no respect, yet you showed them respect by not publicly embarrassing them and demeaning them.

You're a class guy and you should know that.