Was this handled correctly?

[Jack]

Here is my write up of the events in the last fifteen seconds of game time Friday Feb 6,2009 Between Bella Vista (in black) and Rio Americano (in white)at Rio Americano.

This is a boys high school game in California


Rio is down 5 point with the ball and about 15 seconds left in the game. A Rio player attempted a shot in close proximity to the basket which was blocked and recovered by a Bella Vista player. The same Rio player grabbed the Bella Vista player around the waist and wrestled him to the ground. There was no doubt the foul was intentional and flagrant and the referee blew his whistle and made the gesture usually recognized as an ejection from the game. There was not any further altercation as the Bella Vista player got up and walked quickly away towards the Bella Vista bench. The time on the clock was about 12 seconds.

The referee approached the scorers table and said, foul and double technical on number 33 white, crossing his arms at the wrists as he did so. Number 33 went to the bench and stayed there for the reminder of the game.

The referee and his partner conferred with the official scorekeepers for a minute of two and then the announcer stated that Bella Vista would be awarded 6 free throws two for the foul four for the double technical on 33 and two for the Rio coach coming off the bench. He then announced that Rio would get 16 free throws because two Bella Vista coaches and seven players had left the bench.

After Bella Vista attempted their six free throws ( I believe making 5 of 6) it was then announced that Bella Vista would get two more free throws and Rio would get a total of 18. (seems to have been bad math the first time). Bella Vista made one of two.

Rio made 17 of their eighteen free throws. Rio was awarded the ball because the referee said it was a jump ball situation when the foul occurred, even though the Bella Vista Player had the ball and was tackled around the waist.

Rio turned the ball over and Bella vista attempted one more shot before time expired.

Was the awarding of the free throws and the ball handled correctly?

[zm1283]

Originally Posted by Jack

Here is my write up of the events in the last fifteen seconds of game time Friday Feb 6,2009 Between Bella Vista (in black) and Rio Americano (in white)at Rio Americano.

This is a boys high school game in California


Rio is down 5 point with the ball and about 15 seconds left in the game. A Rio player attempted a shot in close proximity to the basket which was blocked and recovered by a Bella Vista player. The same Rio player grabbed the Bella Vista player around the waist and wrestled him to the ground. There was no doubt the foul was intentional and flagrant and the referee blew his whistle and made the gesture usually recognized as an ejection from the game. There was not any further altercation as the Bella Vista player got up and walked quickly away towards the Bella Vista bench. The time on the clock was about 12 seconds.

The referee approached the scorers table and said, foul and double technical on number 33 white, crossing his arms at the wrists as he did so. Number 33 went to the bench and stayed there for the reminder of the game.

If the initial foul that started this was flagrant, it is a flagrant personal foul (Assuming the ball was live). The fouling player is disqualified because of the flagrant foul. There is no double technical here.

The referee and his partner conferred with the official scorekeepers for a minute of two and then the announcer stated that Bella Vista would be awarded 6 free throws two for the foul four for the double technical on 33 and two for the Rio coach coming off the bench.

Nope. The fouled team gets two FT's for the flagrant personal. The coach should have been given a technical for leaving his coaches box, and that is two more FT's. Should have had four total here. (Would the ball be inbounded at the spot nearest the foul because of the flagrant or at the division line because of the T?...anyone?)

He then announced that Rio would get 16 free throws because two Bella Vista coaches and seven players had left the bench.

After Bella Vista attempted their six free throws ( I believe making 5 of 6) it was then announced that Bella Vista would get two more free throws and Rio would get a total of 18. (seems to have been bad math the first time). Bella Vista made one of two.

I know this is wrong, but I'm not going to try and wrap my head around all of it without the rule book handy. The seven players that left the bench are ejected. I'm not sure about the coaches, but I think they are also. I thinking that there are only two FT's shot here, not two for every player/coach that leave the bench.

Rio made 17 of their eighteen free throws. Rio was awarded the ball because the referee said it was a jump ball situation when the foul occurred, even though the Bella Vista Player had the ball and was tackled around the waist.

I'll let someone else take the rest. I'm tired.

As a side note, I would probably use "Team A" and "Team B" and not team names on the forum. Just a thought.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by zm1283

If the initial foul that started this was flagrant, it is a flagrant personal foul (Assuming the ball was live). The fouling player is disqualified because of the flagrant foul. There is no double technical here.

Agreed, based on the information given here. For the player to get a technical, let alone two, he would have to have said or done something else after the initial personal foul. I don't get this from the OP. Perhaps the official thought the only way to eject someone is for them to get two technicals.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by zm1283

Nope. The fouled team gets two FT's for the flagrant personal. The coach should have been given a technical for leaving his coaches box, and that is two more FT's. Should have had four total here. (Would the ball be inbounded at the spot nearest the foul because of the flagrant or at the division line because of the T?...anyone?)

If there is a T, ball goes to the division line, no matter what else happened.

Yes, I know, unless it is a double T, then POI.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by zm1283

I know this is wrong, but I'm not going to try and wrap my head around all of it without the rule book handy. The seven players that left the bench are ejected. I'm not sure about the coaches, but I think they are also. I thinking that there are only two FT's shot here, not two for every player/coach that leave the bench.

Any bench personnel, including assistant coaches, that leave the bench are ejected, but only a single indirect to the head coach and only two free throws if none actually participate in a fight. If the head coach enters the court without being beckoned, he is also assessed a flagrant T and is ejected.

[shishstripes]

Agree, 2 FT's and automatic ejection of player for flagrant foul no need for double tech. 2 FT's for Tech on coach for leaving coaching box, 2 Ft's for all the players leaving the bench and not participating in a fight, each of them are ejected and a team foul for each.

[Nevadaref]

Unfortunately, it seems that someone hasn't opened a rules book since 1963.

[CMHCoachNRef]

I attempted to Case Book-ize the situation described in the OP.

Here it is: events in the last fifteen seconds of game time Friday Feb 6,2009 Between Bella Vista (Team B) and Rio Americano (Team A) at Rio Americano.

Team A is down 5 point with the ball and about 15 seconds left in the game. A1 attempted a shot in close proximity to the basket which was blocked and recovered by B5. A1 grabbed B5 around the waist and wrestled him to the ground. There was no doubt the foul was intentional and flagrant and the referee blew his whistle and made the gesture usually recognized as an ejection from the game. There was not any further altercation as B5 got up and walked quickly away towards the Team B. The time on the clock was about 12 seconds.

The referee approached the scorers table and said, foul and double technical on A1, crossing his arms at the wrists as he did so. A1 went to the bench and stayed there for the reminder of the game.

The referee and his partner conferred with the official scorekeepers for a minute of two and then the announcer stated that Team B would be awarded 6 free throws two for the foul on A1 four for the double technical on A1 and two for the Team A coach coming off the bench. He then announced that Team A would get 16 free throws because two Team B coaches and seven Team B players (B6, B7, B8, B9, B10, B11, B12) had left the bench.

After Team B attempted their six free throws ( I believe making 5 of 6) it was then announced that Team B would get two more free throws and Team A would get a total of 18. (seems to have been bad math the first time). Team B made one of two.

Team A made 17 of their eighteen free throws. Team A was awarded the ball because the referee said it was a jump ball situation when the foul occurred, even though the B5 had the ball and was tackled around the waist by A1.

Team A turned the ball over and Team B attempted one more shot before time expired.

Was the awarding of the free throws and the ball handled correctly?



I can only assume that the official initially called a foul on A1. He then called two technicals on A1. The first technical for wrestling B5 to the ground and the second technical, perhaps, for continuing to fight. He then issued a flagrant technical on Team A head coach for leaving the bench area without being beckoned (this should have resulted in an ejection since the head coach was not beckoned).

The result here is an intentional foul on A1 (2 shots), two flagrant technicals on A1 (not sure how he can justify two technicals on top of the intentional foul -- based on the arms crossed signal -- but, I can only assume that he felt that time had elapsed between the individual events). One additional technical on A1 HC for leaving the bench for a total of three technical fouls.

He then has a total of nine technicals on Team B -- one for each coach leaving the bench and one for each of seven players leaving the bench.


UNFORTUNATELY, he did not appear to have gotten it right.....

Per the Rules Book on fighting under Rule 10 Summary: .
8. Fighting:
a. Players on the court:
(1) Corresponding number from each team – double flagrant fouls, all participants are disqualified, no free throws are awarded, ball is put in play at the point of interruption.
(2) Numbers of participants are not corresponding – Flagrant fouls and disqualification for all participants, two free throws are awarded for the offended team for each additional player, offended team awarded a division line throw in.

b. Bench personnel leaving the team bench during a fight or when a fight may break out:
(1) Do NOT participate in the fight – nonparticipants are assessed flagrant fouls and disqualified. The head coach is assessed a maximum of one indirect technical foul (regardless of the number leaving the bench). If the number leaving the bench for each team is corresponding, no free throws are awarded, and the ball is put in play at the point of interruption. If the number leaving the bench for each team is unequal, a maximum of two free throws are awarded the offended team, followed by a division line throw-in opposite the table.

With a case play that is pretty close:
10.4.5 SITUATION F: It appears a fight may occur on the playing court when (a) A6 and A7; or (b) A6 and B6 leave their respective benches. RULING: In (a) and (b), all players leaving the bench are assessed flagrant fouls and disqualified.
The respective head coach is assessed a maximum of one indirect technical foul (regardless of the number of players leaving the bench). In (a), Team B is awarded two free throws and the ball for a division line throw-in. In (b), no free throws are awarded and the ball is put into play at the point of interruption. (4-36).


It appears as though BOTH head coaches (and the Team B assistant coach) should have been ejected since they came onto the court without being beckoned. IF the technical fouls on A1 were not simultaneous in nature, perhaps, the official can justify two free throws for B5 for the intentional foul of grabbing by A1. He then may be able to justify two technical fouls on A1 for TWO SEPARATE ACTS AFTER the intentional foul (one for wrestling B5 after the foul and a second for taking B5 down after the wrestling technical). I think that calling more than one foul (a flagrant foul for the entire act) is a stretch unless there was clear time between each act (for example, if you call an intentional foul on a player and he responds with a f*** you, it would be reasonable and expected to have an intentional AND a technical as two separate fouls).

Even if the official can justify 6 free throws rather than two for the actions of A1, he cannot justify all of the subsequent free throws for the actions of the coaches and players B6 through B12. He should have only awarded two free throws to A1 since Team B had more players/bench personnel involved. Each of the players (A1 and B6 through B12) involved would have been ejected (A1 for two technical fouls or a flagrant foul and B6 - B12 for leaving the bench area). Play should have been continued with a throw-in by Team A at the division line since the technical fouls assessed against Team B came after the foul and technical fouls assessed against Team A.

I am thinking that I likely would have called a intentional flagrant foul on A1 (possibly an intentional foul on A1 AND a flagrant technical foul, IF I felt that there was clear time BETWEEN the intentional and the fight). This would have resulted in two Free Throws for Team B (four if I assessed the two fouls on A1). Then, I would have issued the technicals on each of the bench personnel and I would have awarded a total of two Free Throws to Team A for the uneven number of simultaneous technicals on the two benches (ejecting each of the three coaches and disqualifying players B6 through B12 along with A1). Since the technical fouls on the bench personnel occurred after the foul(s) on A1, Team A gets the ball at the division line.

But, I very well may have something wrong, here.

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Nevadaref

Unfortunately, it seems that someone hasn't opened a rules book since 1963.

NevadaRef:

I have too opened a rules book on at least one occasion since 1963, I think it was in 1973, .

MTD, Sr.

[just another ref]

Originally Posted by Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.

NevadaRef:

I have too opened a rules book on at least one occasion since 1963, I think it was in 1973, .

MTD, Sr.

A 40th birthday gift from John Wooden?

[Juulie Downs]

Originally Posted by Jack

and the referee blew his whistle and made the gesture usually recognized as an ejection from the game.

I can't comment on the "how many ft's and for whom" part of the OP, but I noticed the above. While this may be the "recognized" signal for ejection in that area, it's not officially correct, is it? Not criticizing, just checking...

Originally Posted by Juulie Downs

I can't comment on the "how many ft's and for whom" part of the OP, but I noticed the above. While this may be the "recognized" signal for ejection in that area, it's not officially correct, is it? Not criticizing, just checking...

There is no prescribed signal under NFHS, but I've seen officials use the same signal umpires in softball/baseball use for ejecting someone. Back when I was in college, I took a class on officiating basketball, and our teacher (a HS/college official) said that would be the best signal to use, without the dramatics that our baseball brethren use.

[Adam]

1. Flagrant personal on the initial foul, two shots for BV.

2. If the coaches didn't participate, they don't get fouls, IMO. I give them leeway. But if you give them techs for leaving the bench, they need to be flagrant and the coaches need to be ejected. In this case, you'll have two free throws for each coach that left the bench. Two for BV and four for Rio. But the two BV FTs are cancelld by two of Rio's. So, two for Rio and none for BV here.

3. Each player that comes off the bench gets a flagrant T. Since none of them participated, you only shoot two free throws for the team that had the fewest players come off the bench. Each head coach gets 1 indirect (not relevant if they're ejected, too.) Rio gets two more FTs here.

4. Final tally, assuming coaches didn't participate:
BV gets 2 FTs. Rio gets 4 FTs and the ball at the division line.
Head coach from each team gets one indirect T.

5. Final tally assuming coaches did participate:
BV gets 2 FTs, Rio gets 6 FTs. Every coach that came out gets a direct, if they were assistants, the coach gets an indirect for each. In the case of the BV coach, if both coaches that participated were assistants, then the HC would get 3 indirects and also be ejected. Rio still gets the ball.

But it seems to be common for refs to mess up the free throws on these situations.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

There is no prescribed signal under NFHS, but I've seen officials use the same signal umpires in softball/baseball use for ejecting someone.

I think it's called the, "You're Outta Here" signal?

[Mark T. DeNucci, Sr.]

Originally Posted by Ref Ump Welsch

There is no prescribed signal under NFHS, but I've seen officials use the same signal umpires in softball/baseball use for ejecting someone. Back when I was in college, I took a class on officiating basketball, and our teacher (a HS/college official) said that would be the best signal to use, without the dramatics that our baseball brethren use.

I think that is a good example of how to correctly use the ejection signal:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xWMvunX3zGk

MTD, Sr.