Bad Situation, How Should It Be Handled?

[walter]

I'm observing a game Saturday afternoon for our rating committee and the following occurs. A leads B 53-51 three minutes to go. A1 (A's best player) picks up his fifth foul, B1 to shoot 1 and 1. Official 1 comes to the table reports the foul and tells the team A coach that A1 has 5 fouls. A1 walks over and stands by the team A bench but is still on the floor. For some reason, official 1 doesn't ask for a 30 sec. clock but instead proceeds to take his position as trail to shoot the free throws. No sub in the game. Official 2 proceeds to announce the 1 and 1 and bounces the ball to B1. Official 1 does nothing. B1 shoots the first free throw and misses. A2 rebounds and throws the ball to A1 who drives in, is fouled by B1 but still proceeds to dunk the ball and then does a chin up on the rim. You guessed it, Official 1 calls the foul on B1 and then a "T" on A1. As he goes to the table, he is met by the team B coach who is SCREAMING that A1 fouled out on the previous play and that the dunk shouldn't count and that his player (B1) should get to re-attempt his 1 and 1 and that there should be a "T" for having an illegal player in the game. The official tells Team B coach to "sit down and shut up while he confers with his partner". The two officials get together and this is what they decide to do. They wipe out the basket by A1 and the foul by B1 (B's best player and this would have been his fifth). They rule that because the play should not have happened (i.e. a sub was not brought into the game) the ball was and remained dead after the first foul call on A1. They assess a technical foul to A1 for dunking a dead ball and a technical foul to Team A for unspotsmanlike conduct for having a disqualified player participate in the game. Since they don't know how much time was left when all of this started they decide not to put time back on the clock. They decide to resume by having B1 re-attempt his 1 and 1. They call B1 to the free throw line and allow him to shoot his 1 and 1 and he makes both (A-53, B-53). Team A coach (not to mention the fans and the varsity coach)is going nuts "you guys screwed up", etc. yelling profusely. Official 2 "T"s coach of Team A and tells him because of the two previous "T"s this "T" causes his ejection. After a delay in which they threaten to end the game if the Team A coach doesn't leave, the coach is led away by the AD, they shoot 6 free throws for the technicals, and needless to say, B goes on to win the game. When I tried to talk to these guys in the locker room, they adamantly defended their position so I quickly shut my mouth and left. The review I turned into the rating committee was not flattering to say the least. I know what I think they should have done but I'm interested to hear what this group thinks.

[Mark Padgett]

Obviously, these refs screwed up big time. Where to start? No way they should have continued play without making sure A1 was replaced. OK, they realized that eventually - lesson learned.

However, there is no provision in the rules that I could find for taking the basket away and having a "do-over". NF 10.3.2 says the technical shall be assessed to a player if he participates after being disqualified when discovered. Case 10.3.2note also does not mention anything about wiping off any play that occurred while the disqualified player was participating.

Their contention that

They rule that because the play should not have happened (i.e. a sub was not brought into the game) the ball was and remained dead after the first foul call on A1

is nonsense. What you had was bench personnel (A1 became that when his coach was notified he was disqualified - NF 4.34.3) participating illegally during a live ball. The ball became live when the official put it at the disposal of the free throw shooter.

If one of the officials had blown his whistle while A1 was driving, the play would have stopped there. But since the disqualification violation wasn't "discovered" until after the basket, it counts. Since this is also an indirect on the coach, the eventual count to three Ts on him was correct.

Not much else was, however.

BTW - since there is no provision for cancelling the basket, there is no erroneous score. Therefore this does not come under the correctable error rule.

[Edited by Mark Padgett on Jan 29th, 2001 at 12:29 PM]

[Brian Watson]

Wow. This is wrong on so many levels, that it must have been painful to watch.

I am not sure what level these guys were working (I assume Varsity since it was being rated), but they need to crack the rule book more often.

1st, This would not have happened in my game because we would go nowhere, until A1 is off the floor. Leaving him out is inexcusable, and flat out should not have happened. If it does it is OUR fault, no one else's.

2nd, Since he was out, the dunk counts, the foul counts, and the T counts (the sub should attempt the 1 free throw). I don't remember seeing any rule that says an illegal player makes the entire sequence disappear. It was very poor to T the dunk, then hit him for being an illegal player. Even though he is now bench personnel, they neglected to remove him. They should have sacked up, admitted the mistake and gone forward, without the T for that. Also, if their deadball theory were to fly, they would need to T B1 for fouling during a dead ball. They can't have their cake and eat it too.

3rd, why in the @#*^$ did they let the kid retry his 1 &1??? Umm, I don't think this is a correctable error.

4th, why didn't the table blow the horn, yell, wave or something. B did have a book there (again, I assume) and they should have told someone.

5th, it was an even worse decision to T the coach. He had an absolute right to be upset, they screwed the pooch. Again, they need to sack up and take their medicine. If your state is like ours, now has a suspension to deal with that is not his fault.

6th, and finally, I hate egotistical officials that will not listen to any comments or criticism (or at least blow the dust off those books to see if they got it right). I hope the state drags their butts in and suspends them, what they did was bush league, and not allowing an evaluator to comment is suicide. They don't deserve to wear stripes like the rest of us until they learn the rules, and some game management skills (telling a coach to shut up and sit down??? what is that?).

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by Brian Watson
It was very poor to T the dunk, then hit him for being an illegal player. Even though he is now bench personnel, they neglected to remove him.

When the coach is notified that a player has fouled out, he is now bench personnel. He doesn't have to leave the floor to be bench personnel and they don't have to remove him. Obviously they screwed up by not waiting until a sibstitution was made. The two technical fouls on A1 are correct. It's debatable whether the coach should have gotten a T or not. Yeah, they screwed up royally, but we don't know what he said or did. Just because there's a major screwup doesn't give a coach the right to go crazy.

[OPTIPLEX2001]

I'm no referee, but I know how the game works. I'm going to have to piece your post together...

For some reason, official 1 doesn't ask for a 30 sec. clock but instead proceeds to take his position as trail to shoot the free throws.

Boom. That's where things really screwed up. First of all, the referee shouldn't even have to ask for a 30 second clock - the timer should know better. (I'm a timer for my high school gym - that's required if you are going to do it.)

No sub in the game.

This is a mixed combination of faults. It's the coach's fault for not having the sub go in, the referee's fault for not counting, or paying attention to see if the sub had come in, and the table's fault for not pointing it out.

Official 2 proceeds to announce the 1 and 1 and bounces the ball to B1

I still don't get WHY the official didn't see if the player had been replaced. Especially if there's 3 of them...

A2 rebounds and throws the ball to A1 who drives in, is fouled by B1 but still proceeds to dunk the ball and then does a chin up on the rim. You guessed it, Official 1 calls the foul on B1 and then a "T" on A1

Well, since the official(s) didn't realize that A1 hadn't been replaced, this seemed like the right call at the time.

As he goes to the table, he is met by the team B coach who is SCREAMING that A1 fouled out on the previous play and that the dunk shouldn't count and that his player (B1) should get to re-attempt his 1 and 1 and that there should be a "T" for having an illegal player in the game.

The official SHOULD touchback with the table, and not listen to the coach.

The official tells Team B coach to "sit down and shut up while he confers with his partner".

A bit blunt, but hey! What can ya do?

The two officials get together and this is what they decide to do. They wipe out the basket by A1 and the foul by B1 (B's best player and this would have been his fifth). They rule that because the play should not have happened (i.e. a sub was not brought into the game) the ball was and remained dead after the first foul call on A1. They assess a technical foul to A1 for dunking a dead ball and a technical foul to Team A for unspotsmanlike conduct for having a disqualified player participate in the game.

The one thing I disagree with is the technical foul to Team A for "unsportsmanlike conduct for having a disqualified player participate in the game."

That's is half way the official's fault. Team A shouldn't of gotten the technical, as it was a little bit of everyone's fault.

[quote]Since they don't know how much time was left when all of this started they decide not to put time back on the clock.[/qupte]

I'm not so sure about that. They should know [roughly] what the time was that elapsed. It was a close game, those seconds could of mattered.

They decide to resume by having B1 re-attempt his 1 and 1. They call B1 to the free throw line and allow him to shoot his 1 and 1 and he makes both (A-53, B-53).

I would of let him shoot again, as well.

Team A coach (not to mention the fans and the varsity coach)is going nuts "you guys screwed up", etc. yelling profusely. Official 2 "T"s coach of Team A and tells him because of the two previous "T"s this "T" causes his ejection.

I guess it was his third technical.

After a delay in which they threaten to end the game if the Team A coach doesn't leave, the coach is led away by the AD, they shoot 6 free throws for the technicals, and needless to say, B goes on to win the game. When I tried to talk to these guys in the locker room, they adamantly defended their position so I quickly shut my mouth and left. The review I turned into the rating committee was not flattering to say the least. I know what I think they should have done but I'm interested to hear what this group thinks.

Read above.

Matthew

[Edited by OPTIPLEX2001 on Jan 29th, 2001 at 02:49 PM]

[Rookie]

Boom. That's where things really screwed up. First of all, the referee shouldn't even have to ask for a 30 second clock - the timer should know better. (I'm a timer for my high school gym - that's required if you are going to do it.)

A timer should not do anything until the Official tells him so, not trying to be high and mighty, but the official signals to the time keeper when to start/stop game clock and when to start timing a timeout.

For example, I do not start a 30 second TO until the players are at their benches, unless there is a player who is moving at a snails pace. If you start the clock when the official walks to the table you could lose 1/2 of the time.

I would of let him shoot again, as well.

This is a great place to learn about rules, listen to what the others have said above, this is not a correctable error.

[OPTIPLEX2001]

A timer should not do anything until the Official tells him so, not trying to be high and mighty, but the official signals to the time keeper when to start/stop game clock and when to start timing a timeout.

That's not the way I, or anyone else at our school operates. After I see what time-out it is (whether be 30 or full), once I see it, I punch it in, whether or not the players are there. BTW, if the timer shouldn't do anything unless the official signals him to, a lot of field goals wouldn't be shown...

This is a great place to learn about rules, listen to what the others have said above, this is not a correctable error.

Sure it is. Let him shoot again. Pretend that anything after that one play happened. Redo the whole deal, and everyone will be happy.

Matthew

[Brian Watson]

If you want a replay go to volleyball.

In basketball, correctable errors are not based on judgement, but fact. And this sitch does not pass as a correctable error. Also, there is no provision for wiping out action after it occurs. It just cannot be done.

[Mark Dexter]

Originally posted by Rookie

A timer should not do anything until the Official tells him so, not trying to be high and mighty, but the official signals to the time keeper when to start/stop game clock and when to start timing a timeout.

For example, I do not start a 30 second TO until the players are at their benches, unless there is a player who is moving at a snails pace. If you start the clock when the official walks to the table you could lose 1/2 of the time.

This is a great place to learn about rules, listen to what the others have said above, this is not a correctable error.

I think what is being said in this situation is that a good timer should be aware to start the 30sec. DQ clock, or prompt the ref for a start.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by OPTIPLEX2001
That's not the way I, or anyone else at our school operates. After I see what time-out it is (whether be 30 or full), once I see it, I punch it in, whether or not the players are there. BTW, if the timer shouldn't do anything unless the official signals him to, a lot of field goals wouldn't be shown.

3 things -
1- We're not talking about a 30 second timeout here. When a player fouls out, the coach has 30 seconds to replace him. The timer starts the 30 seconds when the official tells him to.

2- And since we're at it, on a 30 second or full timeout, you don't start the timeout until the official tells you to do so. The timeout doesn't start until the players get to their bench. So when you start the 30 seconds or 1 minute "whether or not the players are there," you are wrong to do so.

3- The score that you put on the scoreboard doesn't mean anything. The scorebook is the official score. You should post scores based on what the scorer does, not what the official does.

This is a great place to learn about rules, listen to what the others have said above, this is not a correctable error.

Sure it is. Let him shoot again. Pretend that anything after that one play happened. Redo the whole deal, and everyone will be happy. [/QUOTE]

It doesn't work like that. We don't do things just because it makes everyone happy. If you don't understand that, then you might want to consider just reading and asking questions, rather than making comments like that. I'm not trying to be ugly, just offering a little advice.

[PAULK1]

After the initial barage by B's coach letting me know how badly we screwed up, Send both teams and coaches to their bench area(a little more tactfully than shut up and sit down) so that the crew can come together, after deciding what to do get both coaches together(away from benches and table)The conversation should go something like this.
Coaches I have made a huge error and now we have mess
to clean up. We are going to fix this by rule and neither one of you is going to be happy with this decision. After the game I will detail what has happened and send it to the state in a game report and I will make a copy available to each of you. Unsportsmanlike outbursts after the decision
will not be tolerated. All points and fouls occuring after
the FT's by B will stand additionally A1 will recieve a T for participation after being DQ and Coach A will recieve 2 indirect T's resulting from both A1's T's. Coach A you will provide me with a substitute to shoot 1 FT for A1, Coach B
B1 has fouled out you will provide me with a substitute and
a shooter for 4 FT's after which you will get the ball at the division line. You now have 30 sec to replace your players and have your teams ready to resume play.

At this time they will either comply or you are going to see one hell of a fireworks display.

[BktBallRef]

Originally posted by PAULK1
After the initial barage by B's coach letting me know how badly we screwed up, Send both teams and coaches to their bench area(a little more tactfully than shut up and sit down) so that the crew can come together, after deciding what to do get both coaches together(away from benches and table)The conversation should go something like this.
Coaches I have made a huge error and now we have mess
to clean up. We are going to fix this by rule and neither one of you is going to be happy with this decision. After the game I will detail what has happened and send it to the state in a game report and I will make a copy available to each of you. Unsportsmanlike outbursts after the decision
will not be tolerated. All points and fouls occuring after
the FT's by B will stand additionally A1 will recieve a T for participation after being DQ and Coach A will recieve 2 indirect T's resulting from both A1's T's. Coach A you will provide me with a substitute to shoot 1 FT for A1, Coach B
B1 has fouled out you will provide me with a substitute and
a shooter for 4 FT's after which you will get the ball at the division line. You now have 30 sec to replace your players and have your teams ready to resume play.

At this time they will either comply or you are going to see one hell of a fireworks display.

Paul, will you be my mentor?

[Rookie]

Bktballref,

You beat me to the punch. The scoreboard is there only for the convienence of the players, coaches, and fans, it doesn't mean anything. The book is the only thing that matters.

Also, rules are there for a reason, you can't not call a travel becuase no one was with in 15 feet of a player, becuase it didn't really matter if he did or not, the rule is there to be followed.

Officiating isn't about what feels right, it is about black and white(most of the time).

[Mark Padgett]

Originally posted by BktBallRef

Paul, will you be my mentor?

I don't care if he's my mentor, I just want him as a partner! (But not if he's replacing Dave)

[Schmidt MJ]

I believe PAULK1's suggested discussion with the coaches covers all the bases. A1 became bench personnel when the coach was notified of his 5th foul, regardless of whether or not he left the court. A1 then became a player again by rule when the ball became live and he was still on the court. The foul by B1 should count, as should the dunk by A1, as should the T for hanging on the rim by A1. I dont believe the coach should have gotten three T's credited to him because the T for hangin on the rim was committed by a player, once the ball became live, not by bench personnel. He may, however, have earned his ejection by his own actions.

Obviously, the officials were the majority of the problem to begin with and they didn't help themselves by simply calling for a "do over". I hope they were written up harshly for their post-game attitude toward the evaluator and disciplined even harsher for their lack of rules knowledge.