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  #31 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 08:27pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule
What am I missing here? We all know that no run can score if a runner misses the base he is forced to and is subsequently called out on appeal for the third out. Why in your scenario is the appeal denied?

That play is from a quiz posted on the J/R website [www.rulesofbaseball.com/quiz1.html]. They acknowledge that there is not necessarily a definitive ruling on all the plays they offer, but they believe they are giving the rulings that Major League umpires would likely make on the field. I can't fault your logic, since if the runner missed 2B and was then thrown out at 3B, he could certainly then be called out on appeal for the advantageous fourth out force play on the miss of 2B.

However, J/R apparently figure that the rules governing a missed base—that the runner is in the immediate vicinity and attempting to return, so an appeal is technically not yet possible—simply put the runner out without liability to be put out again for the advantageous fourth out. (The fact that he initially slid past the bag establishes a "touch" for the purposes of scoring the run.)

He aquired the bag, when he slid past the base, the continual action, with the fielder making a play on the runner as the runner attempted to get back to the bag, takes away the appeal, making this a time play.
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  #32 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 10:56pm
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JEA 5.06 C&U: "When the runner misses home plate but crosses it, for all legal purposes he shall be considered as having touched it. To nullify the run the defensive team must properly appeal."

The missed base appeal can be upheld only if the runner or the missed base was tagged prior to the runner's touching the base, unless a following runner had scored or the runner had touched a base beyond the missed base after the ball became dead.

Since this appeal must be denied by rule, count the run.
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  #33 (permalink)  
Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 11:31pm
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You're absolutely right, Publius, as regards missed-base appeals. But the play in question does not involve an appeal: it involves a change effected in the status of a runner by his attempt to return to correct an error. In this case, it doesn't matter whether the defense is even paying attention.

You're not going to find the answer to this play in black and white in the rule book.
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  #34 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 23, 2008, 10:31am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by greymule
You're absolutely right, Publius, as regards missed-base appeals. But the play in question does not involve an appeal: it involves a change effected in the status of a runner by his attempt to return to correct an error. In this case, it doesn't matter whether the defense is even paying attention.

You're not going to find the answer to this play in black and white in the rule book.
I agree with your last sentence.

I'm just saying, given the events of the OP (which included, "the defense appeals"), this run scores regardless. When the runner passed the plate, absent an appeal he is deemed to have touched it. The run could be removed on proper appeal if the runner hadn't retouched, but he did.

If the defense doesn't appeal, the run counts since the runner passed the plate before the time-play third out was recorded. If the defense does appeal, the appeal is denied--the runner touched before the appeal was made.

Roder's position is a stretch under current rules and accepted interpretations. You would have to uphold an appeal in which the runner touched the base before the appeal was made. Or, absent an appeal, the umpire would be required to unilaterally ignore the JEA section I quoted.

Either of those, friends, is taking the sh&%ty end of the stick.
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  #35 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 23, 2008, 06:05pm
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Mind if I stretch this out a bit?

At what point does the runner lose the right to return and touch? Is the criteria for abandonment the same as a dropped 3rd strike in each code?
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  #36 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 23, 2008, 08:19pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Publius
I agree with your last sentence.

I'm just saying, given the events of the OP (which included, "the defense appeals"), this run scores regardless. When the runner passed the plate, absent an appeal he is deemed to have touched it. The run could be removed on proper appeal if the runner hadn't retouched, but he did.

If the defense doesn't appeal, the run counts since the runner passed the plate before the time-play third out was recorded. If the defense does appeal, the appeal is denied--the runner touched before the appeal was made.

Roder's position is a stretch under current rules and accepted interpretations. You would have to uphold an appeal in which the runner touched the base before the appeal was made. Or, absent an appeal, the umpire would be required to unilaterally ignore the JEA section I quoted.

Either of those, friends, is taking the sh&%ty end of the stick.

I agree more with Publis in that you score the run regardless. Disallowing the run when the runner comes to retouch is not consistent with the rest of the bases, meaning the runner is "f'd" for missing the plate, whereas he can return and touch any other base without consequence. In this play:

If he retouches home, he's screwed. No run.
If he doesn't, he's screwed. Upon appeal, no run.

That doesn't make sense. That seems to be giving the D the advantage. They can nail runners after the 3rd out, but the offense can't correct their mistake after the 3rd out?

That doesn't seem right...
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  #37 (permalink)  
Old Wed Jan 23, 2008, 08:50pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bossman72
That doesn't make sense. That seems to be giving the D the advantage. They can nail runners after the 3rd out, but the offense can't correct their mistake after the 3rd out?

That doesn't seem right...
Yeah -- but who caused the problem in the first place? If R3 touches the plate, then we're not having this discussion.

IMO, there's support for any of the three calls, and it will take someone with more than an "opinion" to decide.
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  #38 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 24, 2008, 01:25am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bob jenkins
Yeah -- but who caused the problem in the first place? If R3 touches the plate, then we're not having this discussion.

IMO, there's support for any of the three calls, and it will take someone with more than an "opinion" to decide.
I consider J/R as more than just an opinion, as it is widely regarded as the OBR bible.

J/R says wave it off "if the touch is after the 3rd out".

I will guess 100% of the viewers here agree; if a touch of HP comes after the 3rd out, no run.

Seems simple;
1. you can score by "touching" the plate.
2. you can score by "passing" the plate., if no appeal.

I will go out on a limb and say you can't do both.

Runner heads for the DO, he's credited. "Touch" the plate, oooh, too late. To the top of the 13th we go.
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  #39 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 24, 2008, 01:45am
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OK, lets try this again. Lets start with the mechanics of the play. As the plate umpire, your watching R2 come across the plate as the play on the BR is being made. You notice the missed touch of the plate. You also notice that R2 is returning to touch the plate, so everyone in the stadium knows he missed the touch of the plate. No call should have been made so far during this play. You still have a time play going here, R2s action keep the time play in order. Now BR is out at 2B for the third out BEFORE the touch of the plate. Now I ask you, do you have a run. This is continual action. Publius edited JEA 5.06. So lets put it all in there;

Umpires must be alert for situations in which a runner crosses the plate at about the same time the third out is made on the bases. Unless the third out is a force out, this becomes a "time play" and the umpire must determine whether or not the runner crossed the plate before the third out was made. If he did cross the plate prior to the third out being made, the umpire should signal to the scorekeeper that the run counts. If the third out precedes the runner crossing the plate, the umpire shall likewise notify the scorer that the run does not count.

So how does the run score here? Yes, the runner did cross the plate, so he acquired the plate leaving himself vulnerable to an appeal. The runner attempting to correct his err during unrelaxed actions fails to touch the plate before the third out. In an attempt to protect himself and remove himself from jeapordy. Maybe I don't know what a timing play is, however it sure seems the third out happened BEFORE he touched the plate.

When you have a close play at the plate and a runner slides in avoiding the tag he has passed the plate, therefore acquired it by rule, just as our OP. However he attempts to touch the plate as the alert catcher tags him, he's out, different play yes, however not much different mechanic used in making the call in this play. The continual action keeps you from signaling safe and scoring the run only to remove it when the runner is tagged. Hence no signal and timing. Goes along with damn ...is it Ozzy or Garth, one play one call theory.

When can a runner return to touch his missed base? 7.08k tells us that a runner who overslides or running by and misses home plate and continues on toward his dugout can be put out by appeal, however it also says that if the runner returns immediatly to correct his actions he must be tagged.

So less than two out, his run would count since the there was no play on the runner at home. However the third out was recorded at 2B again BEFORE he could touch the plate, during his attempt to return and touch the plate. So again I ask,....How does the run count?

7.10 also tells us about an appeal on missing home plate. Here again, there is differentiation of attempting to return or adandoning his effort. 7.10 also tells us that no retouch may be allowed during a dead ball. MLBUM 5.3 echos these.

So, is the ball alive or dead after the third out? You tell me.

Bossman says there isn't consistancy with retouching home versus any other base, actually it is the same criteria, except were giving the offense a chance to score if the defense doesn't recognize the missed touch of the plate. Just as the rules are allowing the defense a chance to punish the offense for causing a problem to begin with. The only difference here is there are now three outs. What's the advantage to go back and touch a missed base when there are three outs recorded? The only difference here is were talking a run, versus a missed base. And yes as Bossman also points out, he's screwed, however as Bob also points out, the offense caused the problem to begin with.

Also as Graymule points out, were not aruging the miss or touch of the plate, were arguing if he touched the plate before the third out. Becuase of his change in status from crossing the plate to attempting to touch the plate BEFORE the third out was recorded, which he failed to do.

So again I ask, is the ball alive or dead after the third out is recorded?
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Last edited by justanotherblue; Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 01:58am.
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  #40 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 24, 2008, 01:47am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TussAgee11
Mind if I stretch this out a bit?

At what point does the runner lose the right to return and touch? Is the criteria for abandonment the same as a dropped 3rd strike in each code?

If you use the NCAA rule set, a reasonable distance. So if he leaves the dirt and after taking a couple steps is told to go back and touch the plate, he's out of luck.
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  #41 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 24, 2008, 02:08am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike
I consider J/R as more than just an opinion, as it is widely regarded as the OBR bible.
By whom? Not MLB.

The J/R, in my opinion, comes in second to the JEA, and while both can help provide an understanding of the rules, neither are an OBR Bible.
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  #42 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 24, 2008, 02:55am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
By whom? Not MLB.

The J/R, in my opinion, comes in second to the JEA, and while both can help provide an understanding of the rules, neither are an OBR Bible.
I can't name em all, but a bunch of umpires..

Okay, "bible" was kinda strong.

From JEA:
"JEA 5.06 C&U: "When the runner misses home plate but crosses it, for all legal purposes he shall be considered as having touched it. To nullify the run the defensive team must properly appeal." In the OP he didn't do this, he attempted to touch the plate

The missed base appeal can be upheld only if the runner or the missed base was tagged prior to the runner's touching the base, unless a following runner had scored or the runner had touched a base beyond the missed base after the ball became dead. He didn't miss it, he touched it too late

To be "legal" the runner has to touch home, before the 3rd out is made..

JustanotherUmp asks:
"is the ball alive or dead after the third out is recorded?"

I say, live..
Other wise; that last defensive player, before he crosses the foul line, would not be able to appeal a runner. Cause, the only way to put a ball back into play after time; F1, F2 and all the others in their places, etc. Then "play"..
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  #43 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 24, 2008, 09:05am
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Quote:
Originally Posted by soundedlikeastrike
I consider J/R as more than just an opinion, as it is widely regarded as the OBR bible.
It's certainly a well-respected opinion, I agree. But, it's still jsut an opinion -- it's not "law" -- that is, it's not an official source from any rules committee, rules book or case book.

And, he has been shown to be wrong before, and changed some of his writings in later editions to refelct thant knowledge.

Evans is just as much of a well-respected opinion. On this play, I've been told, he has a different opinion from J/R.
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  #44 (permalink)  
Old Thu Jan 24, 2008, 10:39am
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Coincidentally, I was reviewing some old files last night and came across a piece on 4th outs that Bob Pariseau wrote back in the 90's. This portion comes from the umpire manual used at the old Brinkman school which later became known as the J/R. I thought it might be of interest to some.

"If a runner misses home in passing it, AND [emphasis added] returns to touch it, the time he is considered to have touched the plate is when he actually does touch it. If he only passes the plate (failing to touch it), the time he 'touches or passes' the
plate is the time he passes it. E.G: R2, two outs. The batter singles to center field. The throw to the plate is relayed to second base and R2 misses home plate just before the batter-runner is tagged out: R2 is a run unless he becomes out on appeal for missing home. R2 is not a run if he returns to touch home after the out."

In other words, if the defense doesn't appeal and R2 ALSO doesn't return to retouch, the run scores. However, if R2 returns to retouch on his own the run does NOT score (R2 touched home after the third out was made). Thus if R2 returns while the defense is playing on him, he can't possibly score. Even if he evades the tag to retouch home, he'll have done so after the third out at 2B. So R2's only chance is to ignore the fact that he missed home and hope that the defense doesn't appeal his miss.
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Old Thu Jan 24, 2008, 10:59am
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It's just possible that this is a HTBT. Suppose the runner is sprinting home and everybody in the park sees him miss the plate and run well past it. He turns around and scrambles back toward the plate as his team screams for him to touch it. The tag of the other runner occurs before the touch. We can even add: after effecting the third out, F3 sees what's happening at the plate and throws home a little too late to get the runner who is scrambling back. With or without the throw from F3, this seems an obvious "no run" to me.

OTOH, what if, while watching the play develop on the other runner, he walks right past the plate and then proceeds about 10 feet up the 1B line to pick up the bat. As he watches the runner be tagged out, a teammate gets his attention and points to the plate in an apparent indication that he should touch it. The runner who missed the plate now takes a few steps back toward it but, perceiving the defense to be oblivious, says in a low voice to the teammate who pointed, "It's three outs. They can't appeal now," or "Aw, they didn't see it," and goes directly to his position without touching the plate. On that one, I think I'd require an appeal.

I realize that there are also plays that fall within these two extremes.
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Last edited by greymule; Thu Jan 24, 2008 at 11:03am.
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