Do you allow the appeal?

[bossman72]

If the defense can nail the offense for an advantageous 4th out after the third out has occurred, why can't the offense correct a baserunning infraction after the 3rd out. It doesn't seem fair to me if you wave off the run since the defense can get advantageous outs after the 3rd out and the offense can't do anything about it...

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

OK, however the runner has only aquired the base, he hasn't touched it, by returning, he turns it into a timing play, so how can the run score AFTER the thrid out? The only way the run can remain is if the defense doesn't appeal, and the runner doesn't return to touch the plate.

It was a time play to begin with. R2 crossed (acquired) the plate ahead of the 3rd out. The touch doesn't create a new time play, it just corrects a baserunning error. I understand your disagreement on this point, but I still can't see how touching the plate can take off a run that has already scored (absent an appeal).

[justanotherblue]

simple.. timing...timing...timing.... If the runner was attempting to return immediatley I would hope I was aware enough to see what was going on and wave off the run to begin with. As you said, it was/is a timing play to begin with, therefore, no run would score as the runner missed the plate, was attempting to touch it when the third out was made BEFORE he was able to touch the plate, no run scores. Regardless, it is a time play, the third out was made before the runner legally touched the plate. That's my story and I'm sticking to it1

[justanotherblue]

If that's the case and the run should score, then why wouldn't a run score when the third out is made at first base when the runner scored BEFORE the out occured? Afterall, he legally touched the plate before the out.

[SAump]

An umpire must remain "neutral" in regards to a missed base, as not to alert the defense.

The last time by would not apply to the runner, the first time by scores the run.

A runner cannot nullify the score by any legal action, such as retouching a base in the belief he had missed the base.

[socalblue1]

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

simple.. timing...timing...timing.... If the runner was attempting to return immediatley I would hope I was aware enough to see what was going on and wave off the run to begin with. As you said, it was/is a timing play to begin with, therefore, no run would score as the runner missed the plate, was attempting to touch it when the third out was made BEFORE he was able to touch the plate, no run scores. Regardless, it is a time play, the third out was made before the runner legally touched the plate. That's my story and I'm sticking to it1

You would lose this on protest and be relegated to machine pitch triple headers ... Just kidding on the punishment - Maybe :-)

A runner has acquired a base when reached or passed, so the only way to wipe the run off is a proper appeal.

Originally Posted by justanotherblue

If that's the case and the run should score, then why wouldn't a run score when the third out is made at first base when the runner scored BEFORE the out occurred? After all, he legally touched the plate before the out.

Does anyone really need to answer?

[Dave Reed]

Originally Posted by socalblue1

You would lose this on protest ...

Seriously, my guess is that the outcome of a protest is about 50-50. There isn't much authoritative opinion to provide guidance.

[greymule]

Several decades ago, I actually committed this offense as the runner who missed the plate and was returning to touch it when the third out was made, which in this case was the following runner out at home. The ump called the out at home, and then pointed to me and said, "And you don't count!"

What made it worse for me was that my returning caused the following runner to slow down. He would have been safe otherwise. So I created 2 outs and cost us 2 runs. (We won the game anyway, which is evidenced by the fact that I am still here to discuss the matter.)

The next time I came to bat, I asked the ump whether that shouldn't have been an appeal play, and he said, "Maybe you're right." So I assumed for decades that I had been robbed, until a discussion of the play arose on this board a while back. What was apparently agreed upon (at least in OBR), was that by attempting to return, the runner has acknowledged missing the plate, and his run does not score. (This is entirely different from touching a missed base during a dead ball, which is of course permitted in some cases.)

There's certainly a legitimate argument both ways, and maybe in NCAA or other codes there's a case play. But absent a definitive ruling, I would not count the run.

It seems to me somewhat analogous to the play in which the runner from 1B leaves too soon on a long fly that is caught, tries to make 3B, and slides in safe as the relay sails over F5 and into the stands. The umpire awards home, but if the runner returns to touch 1B, the umpire changes the award to 3B. In other words, the runner's acknowledgment of his error causes the umpire to recognize it and take it into account, without any sort of appeal on the part of the defense.

On the other hand, this well-known play seems to be evidence the other way:

Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, two outs. Ground ball up the middle. F6 gloves the ball in front of 2B and attempts to tag the sliding Baker instead of tagging the base. The tag is missed, but Baker slides past the base without touching it. As Baker scrambles back to the base, F6 tags him before he is able to return. Abel scored before the tag was applied for the third out (a "time play"). The defense appeals that Baker missed 2B, hoping to get a force out—an advantageous fourth out—to negate the run.

Ruling: The appeal is denied and the run counts.

[Mrumpiresir]

Originally Posted by greymule

On the other hand, this well-known play seems to be evidence the other way:

Abel on 3B, Baker on 1B, two outs. Ground ball up the middle. F6 gloves the ball in front of 2B and attempts to tag the sliding Baker instead of tagging the base. The tag is missed, but Baker slides past the base without touching it. As Baker scrambles back to the base, F6 tags him before he is able to return. Abel scored before the tag was applied for the third out (a "time play"). The defense appeals that Baker missed 2B, hoping to get a force out—an advantageous fourth out—to negate the run.

Ruling: The appeal is denied and the run counts.

What am I missing here? We all know that no run can score if a runner misses the base he is forced to and is subsequently called out on appeal for the third out. Why in your scenario is the appeal denied?

[_Bruno_]

R2 admits, that he missed the plate when he tried to retouch the plate. now, we have a time play. if he touches home before the 3rd out at 2ndbase, he scores, if not, he doesnt.
if he walks away from home, the defense has to appeal and get the fourth out.

[greymule]

What am I missing here? We all know that no run can score if a runner misses the base he is forced to and is subsequently called out on appeal for the third out. Why in your scenario is the appeal denied?

That play is from a quiz posted on the J/R website [www.rulesofbaseball.com/quiz1.html]. They acknowledge that there is not necessarily a definitive ruling on all the plays they offer, but they believe they are giving the rulings that Major League umpires would likely make on the field. I can't fault your logic, since if the runner missed 2B and was then thrown out at 3B, he could certainly then be called out on appeal for the advantageous fourth out force play on the miss of 2B.

However, J/R apparently figure that the rules governing a missed base—that the runner is in the immediate vicinity and attempting to return, so an appeal is technically not yet possible—simply put the runner out without liability to be put out again for the advantageous fourth out. (The fact that he initially slid past the bag establishes a "touch" for the purposes of scoring the run.)

[_Bruno_]

from J/R

If a runner misses home plate and does not return to touch it, a time play is judged according to the time he passed the plate. If he returns to touch home, the passing of the plate is negated and the time play is judged according to the actual touch of the plate. EG: R2, two outs. The batter singles to center field. The throw to the plate is relayed to second base and R2 misses home plate just before the batter-runner is tagged out:
(a) If R2 proceeds to his dugout or position and all infielders leave fair territory (no appeal), R2's run counts. [NFHS 8.2.2n]
(b) If the defense appeals R2's miss of the plate, he is out and there is no run.
(c) If R2 returns to the plate and touches it after the out at second base, his "touch or pass" of home plate has then occurred after the third out, and cannot be counted; this is a time play.

[dash_riprock]

Originally Posted by _Bruno_

R2 admits, that he missed the plate when he tried to retouch the plate. now, we have a time play.

So, admission of guilt creates a time play. But if the confession were obtained under duress, we have grounds for an appeal!

Sorry Bruno. Your interpretation is a good one. One of two good ones, each maintained by numerous experienced and learned umpires.

[GarthB]

Originally Posted by dash_riprock

But if the confession were obtained under duress, we have grounds for an appeal!

I wonder if the Gitmo inmates have formed a baseball league?

[justanotherblue]

Originally Posted by socalblue1

You would lose this on protest and be relegated to machine pitch triple headers ... Just kidding on the punishment - Maybe :-)

A runner has acquired a base when reached or passed, so the only way to wipe the run off is a proper appeal.

Then bring on your protest. It's a time play, the runners return to touch in continual action causes his run to not count. Yes, your right, the runner aquired the plate, however he didn't touch it, leaving himself vulnerable to appeal, there is a difference as we all should know. As I stated before, his only hope of his run remaining is if the defense didn't see his err and he keeps on going. A runner can't advance after the third out. If he can as you seem to insist, by allowing him to touch and count his run, give me the reference with case plays.




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