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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 04:01pm
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Do you allow the appeal?

Here's a good one from the other forum (simplified a bit):

2 outs, R2. Batter singles, R2 crosses but misses the plate just before the batter is thrown out at 2nd for the 3rd out. R2 then comes back and touches the plate. The defense appeals.

The choices (unless someone comes up with another one):

A. Score the run! R2 "scored" on the time play when he crossed the plate. He corrected his baserunning error by touching the plate, therefore the appeal is not allowed. Any appeal would have to be made before R2 touched the plate.

B. Take the run off! Since R2 didn't correct his baserunning error until after the 3rd out, his run does not count.
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Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 04:34pm
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B.
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Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 04:37pm
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wow, this is a good one. do we have the advantageous 4th out here? Honestly, I'm leaning toward not allowing the run...can a runner retouch after the third out? I'm leaning toward no...I say "B"
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Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 05:36pm
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No run.

R2's run counts on the timing play because he passed the plate. When he returns to correct his baserunning error and touch the plate, the 3rd out has already been recorded. When he touches the plate, wave off the run.

If R2 does NOT return and the defense leaves the field, score the run. If R2 does not return and the defense appeals, grant the appeal.

As for the title question: there's nothing for the defense to appeal in the original situation.

I'm assuming OBR here.
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Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 05:45pm
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In FED, "A" count the run. The defense has to tag the plate or the runner before he retags the plate.

In OBR, according to J/R, this is a time play, no run counts as the runner touched the plate after the 3rd out was made. Now, Rick Roder offered a contradictory interp on this, and you would count this run. I agree with CC, and would go with the J/R interp and not score the run.
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Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 06:08pm
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A will always be the correct answer. Even if the runner has missed the plate, if he has passed the plate he is considered to have legally acquired until upon proper appeal. It is like any other base.
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Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 06:32pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPatrino
In FED, "A" count the run. The defense has to tag the plate or the runner before he retags the plate.

In OBR, according to J/R, this is a time play, no run counts as the runner touched the plate after the 3rd out was made. Now, Rick Roder offered a contradictory interp on this, and you would count this run. I agree with CC, and would go with the J/R interp and not score the run.
OBR: This is an out so long as the defense properly appeals prior to leaving the field (7.10 end notes 1 per JEA).
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Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 07:22pm
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This is a timing play. For all intents and purposes R2 scored before the 3rd out at second base. Even though he did not touch the plate he is considered to have advanced to the plate prior to the out. Absent an appeal his run would count, and since he did retouch, no appeal is possible. Count the run.
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Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 09:52pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mrumpiresir
This is a timing play. For all intents and purposes R2 scored before the 3rd out at second base. Even though he did not touch the plate he is considered to have advanced to the plate prior to the out. Absent an appeal his run would count, and since he did retouch, no appeal is possible. Count the run.
Not quite! Defense may appeal until such time as they have left the field after the 3rd out. Sans appeal, we only care if runner comes back to touch HP or not if a following runner scores.
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Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 09:55pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RPatrino
In OBR, according to J/R, this is a time play, no run counts as the runner touched the plate after the 3rd out was made. Now, Rick Roder offered a contradictory interp on this, and you would count this run.
Interesting. So Rick Roder, the "R" in J/R, disagrees with the J/R?
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Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 10:09pm
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How can you score a run when the third out has already been recorded? If the runner missed the plate, and immediatly returned to touch the dish after the third out he brings his efforts into a time play, hence no run. If he walks away, and prays it wasn't seen, he has a run until a proper appeal.
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Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 10:12pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by GarthB
Interesting. So Rick Roder, the "R" in J/R, disagrees with the J/R?
Not really. CC says so, but the "conflicting" opinion given by "R" is that a runner can return to touch home plate during a dead ball. Not really related to the OP situation, as far as I can see. CC's assertion in the 2004 BRD is in article 459, and CC gives a case play similar to OP that he says "R"'s ruling supports, but I don't see how.
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Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 10:18pm
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dash_riprock
A. Score the run! R2 "scored" on the time play when he crossed the plate. He corrected his baserunning error by touching the plate, therefore the appeal is not allowed. Any appeal would have to be made before R2 touched the plate.
If the defense appeals before the retouch we have an advantageous 4th out, no run scores.
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Old Mon Jan 21, 2008, 10:51pm
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My problem with J/R is that the touch of the plate, by itself, causes the run to be taken off. Think of the mechanic: "Score that run" on the time play when R2 crosses the plate ahead of the 3rd out at 2nd, then "unscore that run" when R2 touches the plate. No thanks.

In all 3 codes, a successful appeal of a baserunning error can only result in a runner being declared out, not a repositioning of events that have already transpired. If R2 has come back to touch the plate, there can be no successful appeal, since the baserunning error has been corrected. The PU would give the safe sign to rule on the appeal. I don't think there is any other option. My answer is A.
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Old Tue Jan 22, 2008, 12:17am
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OK, however the runner has only aquired the base, he hasn't touched it, by returning, he turns it into a timing play, so how can the run score AFTER the thrid out? The only way the run can remain is if the defense doesn't appeal, and the runner doesn't return to touch the plate.
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