A simple yes or no......

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

But would you have zoned out so much that you would have missed the call? That's my point.

I don't think I would have zoned out. I'm sure, however, that I would not be making a call before getting together with my partner. I don't know if "bad angle!" would cause me to react with a verbal call of my own... it would confuse me - I'd be wondering what he meant.

It would definitely be a cluster-F.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

(snip)
My understanding in this situation is that one of two things should happen. When the BU in the C position has a call like this at first he can either
1) make the call the best he can (most likely going to be safe if he can't see an out) and then call time and ask the PU if he saw anything different or
2) make the call the best he can and then wait for the defensive coach to possibly come out and ask for him to check with his partner to see if the PU had anything different.
(snip).

Personally, I wouldn't use 1) - if I'm going to make the call, I wouldn't imediately second guess myself.
If I had any doubts, I would be open to 2) - checking with my partner on a coach's request.

There is also option 3) - which has been discussed back and forth over the years in my HS association - and that is:
BEFORE making the call (but after visually making sure my partner is trailing), loudly asking my partner, "Did she hold the bag?"
or in the case of a possible swipe tag "Did you see a tag?"
The answer should be a yes or no with the proper signal.

This would only happen if it is pre-gamed and understood and I am working with a partner I can trust.
I'm still not sure if this is a deviation from HS (or ASA) mechanics or an accepted method.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

There is also option 3) - which has been discussed back and forth over the years in my HS association - and that is:
BEFORE making the call (but after visually making sure my partner is trailing), loudly asking my partner, "Did she hold the bag?"
or in the case of a possible swipe tag "Did you see a tag?"
The answer should be a yes or no with the proper signal.

This would only happen if it is pre-gamed and understood and I am working with a partner I can trust.
I'm still not sure if this is a deviation from HS (or ASA) mechanics or an accepted method.

This is an accepted mechanic in most of the baseball organizations I've worked for. But in softball, I've been instructed that we should never ask for help from our partner first before we make the call.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

This is an accepted mechanic in most of the baseball organizations I've worked for. But in softball, I've been instructed that we should never ask for help from our partner first before we make the call.

Same here. For both.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Same here. For both.

You mean the same as Manny said, OK for BB, not OK for SB?Or do you mean one of those (OK or not OK) applies to both SB & BB.

Like I said, this has been discussed back and forth over the years in my HS association (Softball Association), including input from a (now former) state evaluator) and I don't think we ever reached a conclusion.

I've been to a couple of NUS weekends since this first came up, but always forget to ask.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

You mean the same as Manny said, OK for BB, not OK for SB?Or do you mean one of those (OK or not OK) applies to both SB & BB.

Like I said, this has been discussed back and forth over the years in my HS association (Softball Association), including input from a (now former) state evaluator) and I don't think we ever reached a conclusion.

I've been to a couple of NUS weekends since this first came up, but always forget to ask.

I meant the same as Manny said.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by chapmaja
(snip)
My understanding in this situation is that one of two things should happen. When the BU in the C position has a call like this at first he can either
1) make the call the best he can (most likely going to be safe if he can't see an out) and then call time and ask the PU if he saw anything different or
2) make the call the best he can and then wait for the defensive coach to possibly come out and ask for him to check with his partner to see if the PU had anything different.
(snip).
.

What I don't like about this is the part about "anything different".
I want "something specific"

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Reminds me of a story I heard from a HS game.

One of our trainers is working the plate and the other umpire (who will be called Bob) is on the bases. Runners on first and third, so the base umpire is in the C position.

Pitch comes in and there is a snap throw from the catcher to first. All the base umpire can see is A&E. What does he call? Safe? Out? Nope, his response was to point to the plate umpire and yell "bad angle!" The plate umpire said he was so in shock, he went completely blank on what he saw and the only thing he could do was single safe. He said to this day he has no idea if she was safe or out at first, but since he could not see her out (or remember what he saw), he had to call her safe.

If you don't see evidence of the defense tag the runner out, of course, the runner is safe. Screaming why isn't necessary, nor IMO professional. Again, didn't see the out, the call must be safe.

Pointing to your partner in this situation, or any time you haven't made a call, is not going for help! An umpire who does this is ceding or "giving up" the call. The call now belongs to the partner, like it or not s/he is in the same situation. If there is no evidence of an out, the runner must be safe. There can be NO discussion as the BU already demonstrated s/he did not see any evidence of an out.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

What I don't like about this is the part about "anything different".
I want "something specific"

Runners at first and third, BU in C. Ground ball to F5, and she throws high to first base. F3 moves back and jumps up to catch the throw, and manages to come down with the ball and her foot touches the very far edge (closest to the fence) of the orange bag. She then tries to swipe tag the BR because she thinks she was supposed to touch white, and misses the tag by inches.

BU rules the runner Out on the swipe tag. First base coach goes to the BU and points out there was no tag, and the BU comes to you. S(he) says, "Did you see a successful swipe tag?" Are you going to answer, "No, the tag missed," and be done with it? Or are you going to say, "No, the tag missed, but she did come down on the orange bag"?

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Runners at first and third, BU in C. Ground ball to F5, and she throws high to first base. F3 moves back and jumps up to catch the throw, and manages to come down with the ball and her foot touches the very far edge (closest to the fence) of the orange bag. She then tries to swipe tag the BR because she thinks she was supposed to touch white, and misses the tag by inches.

BU rules the runner Out on the swipe tag. First base coach goes to the BU and points out there was no tag, and the BU comes to you. S(he) says, "Did you see a successful swipe tag?" Are you going to answer, "No, the tag missed," and be done with it? Or are you going to say, "No, the tag missed, but she did come down on the orange bag"?

That's a good question. At least it starts with a question much better than "anything different" or "what did you have".
Theoretically, the former (No, the tag missed," and be done with it) is acceptable, after all it is the BU call and that seems their only doubt.

Now, if the BU asks next "did you see anything else", you are back to non-specific; but I have to answer about the tag. Maybe being inconsistent, but is having both questions really a TWP?

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Manny A

...S(he) says...

Mike would prefer you say "They said..."

Originally Posted by CecilOne

That's a good question. At least it starts with a question much better than "anything different" or "what did you have".
Theoretically, the former (No, the tag missed," and be done with it) is acceptable, after all it is the BU call and that seems their only doubt.

Now, if the BU asks next "did you see anything else", you are back to non-specific; but I have to answer about the tag. Maybe being inconsistent, but is having both questions really a TWP?

I would only be this picky in the content of the conversation if I was having this discussion with a coach asking me to go for help. Once with my partner, I will offer all I have and they () can choose what to do with it. With my partner, I would assume they are () capable of using the information appropriately.

[Andy]

I would offer the fact that I saw F3 come down with the ball on the edge of the orange bag prior to the runner arriving. I would also tell him that the tag missed.

It's then up to him to use that information and relay his decision to the coach.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by Manny A

(Snip) Or are you going to say, "No, the tag missed, but she did come down on the orange bag"?

Which makes me think about the many times I have been asked "Did she go" on a checked swing and I have been tempted to answer, "NO, but the pitch caught the corner" accompanied by a strike signal.

[tcannizzo]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Runners at first and third, BU in C. Ground ball to F5, and she throws high to first base. F3 moves back and jumps up to catch the throw, and manages to come down with the ball and her foot touches the very far edge (closest to the fence) of the orange bag. She then tries to swipe tag the BR because she thinks she was supposed to touch white, and misses the tag by inches.

BU rules the runner Out on the swipe tag. First base coach goes to the BU and points out there was no tag, and the BU comes to you. S(he) says, "Did you see a successful swipe tag?" Are you going to answer, "No, the tag missed," and be done with it? Or are you going to say, "No, the tag missed, but she did come down on the orange bag"?

So, BU screws the pooch twice?
a.) calls BR "Safe - Off the Base!" because of missing the white base?
Should have called Out before the attempted swipe tag.

b.) calls BR Out on an unseen tag, but announces TAG! OUT! ?
Should have called Safe and then gone for help if asked.

It is really hard for me to un-ring an Out without throwing your partner under the bus. BU "saw" the tag that didn't happen - judgement.
What is the lesser of two evils here?
- simply eat a bad judgement call
- or have the call overturned validating/emphasizing the mistake

IMHO the former will be forgotten and forgiven much quicker than the latter. I think we have all seen this happen setting the shit-storm in motion.
I see it as throwing good money after bad.

This would be discussed in great detail in the post-game debrief.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

So, BU screws the pooch twice?
a.) calls BR "Safe - Off the Base!" because of missing the white base?
Should have called Out before the attempted swipe tag.

The OP read like not visible from "C".

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

b.) calls BR Out on an unseen tag, but announces TAG! OUT! ?
Should have called Safe and then gone for help if asked.


This would be discussed in great detail in the post-game debrief.

Agree with these parts.

Originally Posted by tcannizzo

It is really hard for me to un-ring an Out without throwing your partner under the bus. BU "saw" the tag that didn't happen - judgment.
What is the lesser of two evils here?
- simply eat a bad judgment call
- or have the call overturned validating/emphasizing the mistake

This is where the tough choices are; which gets back to whether the PU tells the BU about the base tag or just answers about the runner swipe.
I can live with being under the bus if we get the call right.