A simple yes or no......

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Dakota

So, which is better, umpires you have to tolerate, or games umpired by coaches or dads?

Hiring umpires, especially the kind you describe, for 8U ball does seem like an unnecessary expense.

We're playing in a league where each town has 1-3 teams. I'd be happy to not hire umpires and do the games myself (and let my assistants coach), but I've been told it's a bad idea.

We did a ton of fundraising and received a number of sponsorships, so whether I hire a HS kid for $30/game or a top umpire for $50/game isn't a big deal. It's a bigger deal that I get umpires that don't call strikes over my kids' heads. Working really hard for them to swing at good pitches and it's amazing how quickly that gets undone by someone who calls nose-high strikes.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Rich

...it's amazing how quickly that gets undone by someone who calls nose-high strikes.

So, when you DO umpire games at this level (or even a bit higher level), how many complaints do you get from parents, fans, maybe even coaches, when you DO NOT call nose-high strikes!

[Rich]

Originally Posted by Dakota

So, when you DO umpire games at this level (or even a bit higher level), how many complaints do you get from parents, fans, maybe even coaches, when you DO NOT call nose-high strikes!

I umpire baseball games at this level for Little League. I may widen the zone a bit and use every bit of the knee, etc. but I don't go above the shoulders. Others' mileage may vary.

[Dakota]

Originally Posted by Rich

I umpire baseball games at this level for Little League. I may widen the zone a bit and use every bit of the knee, etc. but I don't go above the shoulders. Others' mileage may vary.

I wasn't asking about what you did, but what you didn't do that people complained about! Not calling the high "strike" is one of the most common complaints I get at the 12U or so level. Heck, I was watching a colleague umpire an 18U game last weekend where "dad" was loudly bitching because pitches at chin high weren't called strikes! (Maybe he was the pitcher's dad?)

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Shame on the PU.

I always pregame this (BU at C, pickoff throw to first) with my partner. At the higher levels (high school, college, good travel ball, etc.), this play can happen a couple of times a game. There should be no reason a PU goes blank on this play.

One colleague of mine whom I've worked with on many occasions up to and including Juco ball wants the PU to take this call as a deviation of the normal mechanic.

From what I was told, yes they pre-gamed the situation of the umpire being in the C position and a pick off play at first. What was not pre-gamed was a yell across the infield "Bad angle". That is not how it should be handled in any way, shape or form at any level, let alone a pair of solid varsity programs. That was why he went blank, simply because the shock of how he was asked if she saw something different, not because he didn't see the play.


My understanding in this situation is that one of two things should happen. When the BU in the C position has a call like this at first he can either 1) make the call the best he can (most likely going to be safe if he can't see an out) and then call time and ask the PU if he saw anything different or 2) make the call the best he can and then wait for the defensive coach to possibly come out and ask for him to check with his partner to see if the PU had anything different.

The one thing you never do is yell across the infield Bad Angle, Didn't See it, I don't know, or anything like that.

Also, umpire to umpire communications across the diamond should be limited to signals and not verbal communications (in regards to calls). These include appeals on a checked swing (safe or out signal) or infield fly on or off signal. The only time verbal communication should be used across the infield is when there is an alteration to a normal position procedure (Going out, I've got third, ect).

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Rich

I love these stories.

I have one of my own.

I'm coaching my daughter's softball team this summer. 8U. I'd give anything for girls that could catch, pitch, hit, etc. but we're having fun and we're doing OK. We're playing a lot of 10U teams and actually won a 10U tournament a few weeks ago.

We're at a tournament this past weekend and end up the 3 seed out of 12 teams. We had a game against the 6 seed on Sunday to advance to the semifinal.

One umpire with a HS player on the bases. Hey, he was actually dressed in a uniform, which isn't a usual thing for us. At this age level, there are so many modified rules I have a hard time keeping them straight, so it's no big surprise that they are different from game to game and umpire to umpire.

First inning of the game, there was a throw that got through at second base. My runner came to third and I sent her home. The plate umpire yelled at me and the runner, "ONE BASE ON AN OVERTHROW!" I was a bit stunned, but figured that was one of the day's modifications, so I said, "No problem. If I run a girl too far, just let me know and we'll put her back."

"IF YOU KNOW THE RULE, WHY WOULD YOU RUN HER?" Top of his lungs.

Wow.

Next inning, I had a legitimate question about a rule modification. I asked for time, was granted it, and walked calmly to the plate umpire to ask the question. Before I could get a sentence out, he yelled at me, "SHUT UP AND GET BACK IN THE DUGOUT."

Stunned, I went back towards the dugout and the umpire followed me. I turned towards him and he then said, "ONE MORE WORD OUT OF YOU AND YOU'RE GONE."

I was so stunned that I think I said, "But..." and just like that, he ejected me.

I walked out without saying a word and ended up on a picnic bench in left field. After I left, one of my parents said something and he turned and yelled through the fence, "SHUT UP OR YOU'RE GONNA LEAVE."

The tournament director was sympathetic and came and talked to me and said I could return to the tourney if my team won. We didn't. My kid was an absolute basket case, but she pitched the next inning really well.

So there it is. My first career ejection on the other side. I still don't know what hit me, other than the worst umpire I've ever seen.

Wow, just wow. I've seen some uptight umpires in my day, but this takes the cake. You never yell at a coach when you are an umpire. If there is an issue, you talk to them in a calm and professional tone of voice. You can be authoritative if needed, but that is different from yelling. You also never ever follow a coach that is walking away from you.

The worst one though was the "if you say anything else, your out of here" type comment. The good news, he followed through with his threat. The bad news is you have now forced yourself into a corner as an umpire, because even if the coach says "ok" you need to toss them.

I have never seen an umpire get removed from an event in softball, but I've seen a couple instances in volleyball where officials have nearly been sent home (and in my opinion should have been). One was a varsity event where the officials was making all the calls, even though most of them were not his call to make. He was also very rude to the coaches when they attempted to question calls. Finally he was very rude to the event manager when his officiating was brought up. Thankfully they changed the schedule so he was not working the gold bracket matches in the afternoon. (Funny about that he said he wanted to start doing college matches, one of the parents of a team he screwed over on a call is a national level official (worked NCAA post-season play) and is the volleyball trainer for USAV. That ended any plans he had of advancing to college ball anytime soon. The second issue was an official who was yelling at a coach to the point of making her cry at a tourney. It was a season opening event and was freshman volleyball. She was a new coach (college graduate last year) and made a couple coaching mistakes. Instead of talking to her about the issues in a professional manner, and calling the issues by the book, he started berating her in front of the teams, fans and other coaches. Several of us who witnessed this wanted him removed, but the school AD refused. This is the only time I have ever been in favor of removing an official in an event.

The first official I mentioned from volleyball was removed from my assigning list for a sport I assign, swimming. I observed him at a meet that he showed up late to, and had no clue what he was doing. It was so bad I thought he was going to toss the visiting coach from the meet for questioning his starting procedures. (You can't start backstroke from the pool deck). This visiting coach is one of the most mild mannered coaches I have worked with, and never has he said anything to anyone that would warrant an ejection, but he was close at this SWIM MEET (I've heard of three ejections from swim meets in my life, and one was for a swimmer violating a rule repeatedly-jewelry).

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Rich

We're playing in a league where each town has 1-3 teams. I'd be happy to not hire umpires and do the games myself (and let my assistants coach), but I've been told it's a bad idea.

We did a ton of fundraising and received a number of sponsorships, so whether I hire a HS kid for $30/game or a top umpire for $50/game isn't a big deal. It's a bigger deal that I get umpires that don't call strikes over my kids' heads. Working really hard for them to swing at good pitches and it's amazing how quickly that gets undone by someone who calls nose-high strikes.

I agree about the nose high strikes. We are repeatedly instructed to increase the size of the strike zone to "move the game along". I disagree with this in the majority of cases because it teaches bad habits. Now will I go an inch on either side of the plate? Yeah, but I'm not calling a pitch 6 inches high, low, inside or outside a strike. By forcing players to swing at pitches way out of the zone you are teaching them bad mechanics. Why? To speed the game along.

I think a lot of leagues need to look at the reason they have 8U and up softball. Is it to be competitive, or is it to teach the skills so the players can play at a higher level in the future.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

Huh....what?....I stopped reading when it was noted 8U were playing in a tournament with umpires.

Yours was one of the answers I wanted.

[Rich]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

I agree about the nose high strikes. We are repeatedly instructed to increase the size of the strike zone to "move the game along". I disagree with this in the majority of cases because it teaches bad habits. Now will I go an inch on either side of the plate? Yeah, but I'm not calling a pitch 6 inches high, low, inside or outside a strike. By forcing players to swing at pitches way out of the zone you are teaching them bad mechanics. Why? To speed the game along.

I think a lot of leagues need to look at the reason they have 8U and up softball. Is it to be competitive, or is it to teach the skills so the players can play at a higher level in the future.

For us, there's no point in speeding the game along. In this tourney, it was coach pitch after 4 balls and we had a 75 minute time limit.

I think it's possible to do both. We play the games because the girls love it. Even when they lose, it's forgotten minutes later. But you can't simply practice all the time - kids get bored with drill after drill after drill.

[AtlUmpSteve]

Originally Posted by CecilOne

for UIC types only:
If you observed this, or had a verifiable report, how would you handle this with the umpire in question?

Depends on the immediate options.

1) If I have a replacement immediately available, he sits. At least until we have a conversation that leads me to believe he understands that is unacceptable.

2) If I have no immediately available replacement, he finishes the day. Still going to try to have that conversation between games; if not possible, before he leaves. If not then, before he ever gets the chance to work another day.

3) If he doesn't get it, he doesn't work again. Period.

4) If the TD (my customer) wants him gone regardless the result of the conversation, the customer is always right.

We are in a customer service job. I use the following comparison when umpires question how much power the TD or coaches have, or should have:

If you walk into the local Waffle House/Huddle House/IHOP/Applebees/etc, where you have been before, are greeted by the hostess, and you tell the hostess there is a specific server you have had before, and wish to sit at ANY OTHER area, what would you do, as a paying customer, if that hostess told you that you had to sit in that server's area, just because it was his/her turn, or their policy? Would you even pause to ask to speak to the manager first, or would you simply get up and go to another restaurant?

That's pretty much the relationship umpire associations or UIC's have with the TD's. There's always someone else they can use if your service isn't customer friendly. I'm NOT saying bend over, I'm saying that customer service is a necessary part of what we do; the customer has to be really out of line to not be the primary concern. The very nature of officiating is inherently adverserial; we have to sell our customer service despite that automatic bias. We certainly need to support our umpires in their calls, following the rules, etc; but how they deal with the customer makes or breaks their ability to be effective.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

I'm posting this as me, and not as an admin...

I'm sorry if this offends, Mike... but considering who you are this continual beratement of places that play 8U seriously is insulting. There IS good 8U ball out there. Perhaps you don't have it in your neck of the woods, but it exists, and in areas where it exists, it should be encouraged, not insulted.

To start, I don't get offended. That is a wasted and self-inflicted emotion.

8U needs coaches, not umpires. They do not need the BS that goes with competition at that age whether you think it is good ball or not.

Look at all the drama in this simple case, whether from a lousy or power-tripping umpire or the coaches and/or parents.

It is and always has been my opinion that at that age, the priority should be instruction, not competition.

I'm glad that Rich's team doesn't take it that serious, but that is some really serious money and I'm willing to bet there is a parent to two already getting their pens out to endorse an NLI

[Rich]

Originally Posted by IRISHMAFIA

To start, I don't get offended. That is a wasted and self-inflicted emotion.

8U needs coaches, not umpires. They do not need the BS that goes with competition at that age whether you think it is good ball or not.

Look at all the drama in this simple case, whether from a lousy or power-tripping umpire or the coaches and/or parents.

It is and always has been my opinion that at that age, the priority should be instruction, not competition.

I'm glad that Rich's team doesn't take it that serious, but that is some really serious money and I'm willing to bet there is a parent to two already getting their pens out to endorse an NLI

I could send you a couple of emails I've gotten from parents.

Too bad for them I don't really give a flying you-know-what what they think.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

From what I was told, yes they pre-gamed the situation of the umpire being in the C position and a pick off play at first. What was not pre-gamed was a yell across the infield "Bad angle". That is not how it should be handled in any way, shape or form at any level, let alone a pair of solid varsity programs. That was why he went blank, simply because the shock of how he was asked if she saw something different, not because he didn't see the play.

Well, if I were to go blank for every unexpected thing a partner of mine said or did, I would be catatonic practically every other game. C'mon, yelling "Bad angle" isn't something to get shocked about to the point that you can't help with a call!

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Also, umpire to umpire communications across the diamond should be limited to signals and not verbal communications (in regards to calls). These include appeals on a checked swing (safe or out signal)...

Well, you're wrong on that one. On a checked swing appeal, the PU verbally asks his/her partner, "Did she go?" and the BU responds with a verbal "Yes" or "No" along with the out/safe mechanic. Are you telling me you don't do that in your games? There's also verbal communications and not just signals when one partner asks the other for the correct count or number of outs. Partner-to-partner communications uses both signals and verbal requests. And in times when a verbal is not expected, a good umpire won't go into fugue state when it happens.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Well, if I were to go blank for every unexpected thing a partner of mine said or did, I would be catatonic practically every other game. C'mon, yelling "Bad angle" isn't something to get shocked about to the point that you can't help with a call!

Ehh... I'm not usually the first guy to jump in defense of Chap ... but "Bad Angle!" would throw me too for at least a second or two. Kind of like "TIE!!!" did last summer.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Ehh... I'm not usually the first guy to jump in defense of Chap ... but "Bad Angle!" would throw me too for at least a second or two. Kind of like "TIE!!!" did last summer.

But would you have zoned out so much that you would have missed the call? That's my point.