A simple yes or no......

[HugoTafurst]

These responses from a partner left me scratching my head after a "showcase" game this weekend:

Me (to partner in "C"), "Tom, did she go"?
Partner, "I can't be sure from here, but I don't think so".


Later that same game:
Me (to partner in "A"), "Tom, did she go"?
Partner, "not far enough"

I suspect that the fact that it was a showcase game kept my partner (and possibly me) from getting eaten up.

No big deal, but had to share..................

[chapmaja]

Reminds me of a story I heard from a HS game.

One of our trainers is working the plate and the other umpire (who will be called Bob) is on the bases. Runners on first and third, so the base umpire is in the C position.

Pitch comes in and there is a snap throw from the catcher to first. All the base umpire can see is A&E. What does he call? Safe? Out? Nope, his response was to point to the plate umpire and yell "bad angle!" The plate umpire said he was so in shock, he went completely blank on what he saw and the only thing he could do was single safe. He said to this day he has no idea if she was safe or out at first, but since he could not see her out (or remember what he saw), he had to call her safe.

And no, I was not umpiring, so I am not Bob. This story predates my umpiring softball regularly.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

no idea if she was safe or out at first, but since he could not see her out (or remember what he saw), he had to call her safe.

yep!

[tcannizzo]

R1 on 2B, R2 on 1B, B3 hits ground ball to F6.
R1 passes right in front of F6 who fields the ball cleanly. No call by BU.
R1 then made a herky-jerky step and then started slowing down (presumably the ball may have nicked her foot thinking she was going to be called out.)

After play BU wanted to ask me if he should call the runner out "because she called herself out".

I asked simply did you see the ball hit her foot? Yes or No.

I know that I did not see the ball hit her foot and neither did BU.
No call.

[Rich]

I love these stories.

I have one of my own.

I'm coaching my daughter's softball team this summer. 8U. I'd give anything for girls that could catch, pitch, hit, etc. but we're having fun and we're doing OK. We're playing a lot of 10U teams and actually won a 10U tournament a few weeks ago.

We're at a tournament this past weekend and end up the 3 seed out of 12 teams. We had a game against the 6 seed on Sunday to advance to the semifinal.

One umpire with a HS player on the bases. Hey, he was actually dressed in a uniform, which isn't a usual thing for us. At this age level, there are so many modified rules I have a hard time keeping them straight, so it's no big surprise that they are different from game to game and umpire to umpire.

First inning of the game, there was a throw that got through at second base. My runner came to third and I sent her home. The plate umpire yelled at me and the runner, "ONE BASE ON AN OVERTHROW!" I was a bit stunned, but figured that was one of the day's modifications, so I said, "No problem. If I run a girl too far, just let me know and we'll put her back."

"IF YOU KNOW THE RULE, WHY WOULD YOU RUN HER?" Top of his lungs.

Wow.

Next inning, I had a legitimate question about a rule modification. I asked for time, was granted it, and walked calmly to the plate umpire to ask the question. Before I could get a sentence out, he yelled at me, "SHUT UP AND GET BACK IN THE DUGOUT."

Stunned, I went back towards the dugout and the umpire followed me. I turned towards him and he then said, "ONE MORE WORD OUT OF YOU AND YOU'RE GONE."

I was so stunned that I think I said, "But..." and just like that, he ejected me.

I walked out without saying a word and ended up on a picnic bench in left field. After I left, one of my parents said something and he turned and yelled through the fence, "SHUT UP OR YOU'RE GONNA LEAVE."

The tournament director was sympathetic and came and talked to me and said I could return to the tourney if my team won. We didn't. My kid was an absolute basket case, but she pitched the next inning really well.

So there it is. My first career ejection on the other side. I still don't know what hit me, other than the worst umpire I've ever seen.

[CecilOne]

Originally Posted by Rich

I love these stories.

I have one of my own.

I'm coaching my daughter's softball team this summer. 8U. I'd give anything for girls that could catch, pitch, hit, etc. but we're having fun and we're doing OK. We're playing a lot of 10U teams and actually won a 10U tournament a few weeks ago.

We're at a tournament this past weekend and end up the 3 seed out of 12 teams. We had a game against the 6 seed on Sunday to advance to the semifinal.

One umpire with a HS player on the bases. Hey, he was actually dressed in a uniform, which isn't a usual thing for us. At this age level, there are so many modified rules I have a hard time keeping them straight, so it's no big surprise that they are different from game to game and umpire to umpire.

First inning of the game, there was a throw that got through at second base. My runner came to third and I sent her home. The plate umpire yelled at me and the runner, "ONE BASE ON AN OVERTHROW!" I was a bit stunned, but figured that was one of the day's modifications, so I said, "No problem. If I run a girl too far, just let me know and we'll put her back."

"IF YOU KNOW THE RULE, WHY WOULD YOU RUN HER?" Top of his lungs.

Wow.

Next inning, I had a legitimate question about a rule modification. I asked for time, was granted it, and walked calmly to the plate umpire to ask the question. Before I could get a sentence out, he yelled at me, "SHUT UP AND GET BACK IN THE DUGOUT."

Stunned, I went back towards the dugout and the umpire followed me. I turned towards him and he then said, "ONE MORE WORD OUT OF YOU AND YOU'RE GONE."

I was so stunned that I think I said, "But..." and just like that, he ejected me.

I walked out without saying a word and ended up on a picnic bench in left field. After I left, one of my parents said something and he turned and yelled through the fence, "SHUT UP OR YOU'RE GONNA LEAVE."

The tournament director was sympathetic and came and talked to me and said I could return to the tourney if my team won. We didn't. My kid was an absolute basket case, but she pitched the next inning really well.

So there it is. My first career ejection on the other side. I still don't know what hit me, other than the worst umpire I've ever seen.

for UIC types only:
If you observed this, or had a verifiable report, how would you handle this with the umpire in question?

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Rich

I love these stories.

I have one of my own.

I'm coaching my daughter's softball team this summer. 8U. I'd give anything for girls that could catch, pitch, hit, etc. but we're having fun and we're doing OK. We're playing a lot of 10U teams and actually won a 10U tournament a few weeks ago.

We're at a tournament this past weekend and end up the 3 seed out of 12 teams. We had a game against the 6 seed on Sunday to advance to the semifinal.

One umpire with a HS player on the bases. Hey, he was actually dressed in a uniform, which isn't a usual thing for us. At this age level, there are so many modified rules I have a hard time keeping them straight, so it's no big surprise that they are different from game to game and umpire to umpire.

First inning of the game, there was a throw that got through at second base. My runner came to third and I sent her home. The plate umpire yelled at me and the runner, "ONE BASE ON AN OVERTHROW!" I was a bit stunned, but figured that was one of the day's modifications, so I said, "No problem. If I run a girl too far, just let me know and we'll put her back."

"IF YOU KNOW THE RULE, WHY WOULD YOU RUN HER?" Top of his lungs.

Wow.

Next inning, I had a legitimate question about a rule modification. I asked for time, was granted it, and walked calmly to the plate umpire to ask the question. Before I could get a sentence out, he yelled at me, "SHUT UP AND GET BACK IN THE DUGOUT."

Stunned, I went back towards the dugout and the umpire followed me. I turned towards him and he then said, "ONE MORE WORD OUT OF YOU AND YOU'RE GONE."

I was so stunned that I think I said, "But..." and just like that, he ejected me.

I walked out without saying a word and ended up on a picnic bench in left field. After I left, one of my parents said something and he turned and yelled through the fence, "SHUT UP OR YOU'RE GONNA LEAVE."

The tournament director was sympathetic and came and talked to me and said I could return to the tourney if my team won. We didn't. My kid was an absolute basket case, but she pitched the next inning really well.

So there it is. My first career ejection on the other side. I still don't know what hit me, other than the worst umpire I've ever seen.

Wow, just wow. I've seen some uptight umpires in my day, but this takes the cake. You never yell at a coach when you are an umpire. If there is an issue, you talk to them in a calm and professional tone of voice. You can be authoritative if needed, but that is different from yelling. You also never ever follow a coach that is walking away from you.

The worst one though was the "if you say anything else, your out of here" type comment. The good news, he followed through with his threat. The bad news is you have now forced yourself into a corner as an umpire, because even if the coach says "ok" you need to toss them.

I have never seen an umpire get removed from an event in softball, but I've seen a couple instances in volleyball where officials have nearly been sent home (and in my opinion should have been). One was a varsity event where the officials was making all the calls, even though most of them were not his call to make. He was also very rude to the coaches when they attempted to question calls. Finally he was very rude to the event manager when his officiating was brought up. Thankfully they changed the schedule so he was not working the gold bracket matches in the afternoon. (Funny about that he said he wanted to start doing college matches, one of the parents of a team he screwed over on a call is a national level official (worked NCAA post-season play) and is the volleyball trainer for USAV. That ended any plans he had of advancing to college ball anytime soon. The second issue was an official who was yelling at a coach to the point of making her cry at a tourney. It was a season opening event and was freshman volleyball. She was a new coach (college graduate last year) and made a couple coaching mistakes. Instead of talking to her about the issues in a professional manner, and calling the issues by the book, he started berating her in front of the teams, fans and other coaches. Several of us who witnessed this wanted him removed, but the school AD refused. This is the only time I have ever been in favor of removing an official in an event.

The first official I mentioned from volleyball was removed from my assigning list for a sport I assign, swimming. I observed him at a meet that he showed up late to, and had no clue what he was doing. It was so bad I thought he was going to toss the visiting coach from the meet for questioning his starting procedures. (You can't start backstroke from the pool deck). This visiting coach is one of the most mild mannered coaches I have worked with, and never has he said anything to anyone that would warrant an ejection, but he was close at this SWIM MEET (I've heard of three ejections from swim meets in my life, and one was for a swimmer violating a rule repeatedly-jewelry).

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

The plate umpire said he was so in shock, he went completely blank on what he saw and the only thing he could do was single safe. He said to this day he has no idea if she was safe or out at first, but since he could not see her out (or remember what he saw), he had to call her safe.

Shame on the PU.

I always pregame this (BU at C, pickoff throw to first) with my partner. At the higher levels (high school, college, good travel ball, etc.), this play can happen a couple of times a game. There should be no reason a PU goes blank on this play.

One colleague of mine whom I've worked with on many occasions up to and including Juco ball wants the PU to take this call as a deviation of the normal mechanic.

[chapmaja]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Shame on the PU.

I always pregame this (BU at C, pickoff throw to first) with my partner. At the higher levels (high school, college, good travel ball, etc.), this play can happen a couple of times a game. There should be no reason a PU goes blank on this play.

One colleague of mine whom I've worked with on many occasions up to and including Juco ball wants the PU to take this call as a deviation of the normal mechanic.

From what I was told, yes they pre-gamed the situation of the umpire being in the C position and a pick off play at first. What was not pre-gamed was a yell across the infield "Bad angle". That is not how it should be handled in any way, shape or form at any level, let alone a pair of solid varsity programs. That was why he went blank, simply because the shock of how he was asked if she saw something different, not because he didn't see the play.


My understanding in this situation is that one of two things should happen. When the BU in the C position has a call like this at first he can either 1) make the call the best he can (most likely going to be safe if he can't see an out) and then call time and ask the PU if he saw anything different or 2) make the call the best he can and then wait for the defensive coach to possibly come out and ask for him to check with his partner to see if the PU had anything different.

The one thing you never do is yell across the infield Bad Angle, Didn't See it, I don't know, or anything like that.

Also, umpire to umpire communications across the diamond should be limited to signals and not verbal communications (in regards to calls). These include appeals on a checked swing (safe or out signal) or infield fly on or off signal. The only time verbal communication should be used across the infield is when there is an alteration to a normal position procedure (Going out, I've got third, ect).

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

From what I was told, yes they pre-gamed the situation of the umpire being in the C position and a pick off play at first. What was not pre-gamed was a yell across the infield "Bad angle". That is not how it should be handled in any way, shape or form at any level, let alone a pair of solid varsity programs. That was why he went blank, simply because the shock of how he was asked if she saw something different, not because he didn't see the play.

Well, if I were to go blank for every unexpected thing a partner of mine said or did, I would be catatonic practically every other game. C'mon, yelling "Bad angle" isn't something to get shocked about to the point that you can't help with a call!

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Also, umpire to umpire communications across the diamond should be limited to signals and not verbal communications (in regards to calls). These include appeals on a checked swing (safe or out signal)...

Well, you're wrong on that one. On a checked swing appeal, the PU verbally asks his/her partner, "Did she go?" and the BU responds with a verbal "Yes" or "No" along with the out/safe mechanic. Are you telling me you don't do that in your games? There's also verbal communications and not just signals when one partner asks the other for the correct count or number of outs. Partner-to-partner communications uses both signals and verbal requests. And in times when a verbal is not expected, a good umpire won't go into fugue state when it happens.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Manny A

Well, if I were to go blank for every unexpected thing a partner of mine said or did, I would be catatonic practically every other game. C'mon, yelling "Bad angle" isn't something to get shocked about to the point that you can't help with a call!

Ehh... I'm not usually the first guy to jump in defense of Chap ... but "Bad Angle!" would throw me too for at least a second or two. Kind of like "TIE!!!" did last summer.

[HugoTafurst]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

(snip)
My understanding in this situation is that one of two things should happen. When the BU in the C position has a call like this at first he can either
1) make the call the best he can (most likely going to be safe if he can't see an out) and then call time and ask the PU if he saw anything different or
2) make the call the best he can and then wait for the defensive coach to possibly come out and ask for him to check with his partner to see if the PU had anything different.
(snip).

Personally, I wouldn't use 1) - if I'm going to make the call, I wouldn't imediately second guess myself.
If I had any doubts, I would be open to 2) - checking with my partner on a coach's request.

There is also option 3) - which has been discussed back and forth over the years in my HS association - and that is:
BEFORE making the call (but after visually making sure my partner is trailing), loudly asking my partner, "Did she hold the bag?"
or in the case of a possible swipe tag "Did you see a tag?"
The answer should be a yes or no with the proper signal.

This would only happen if it is pre-gamed and understood and I am working with a partner I can trust.
I'm still not sure if this is a deviation from HS (or ASA) mechanics or an accepted method.

[Manny A]

Originally Posted by HugoTafurst

There is also option 3) - which has been discussed back and forth over the years in my HS association - and that is:
BEFORE making the call (but after visually making sure my partner is trailing), loudly asking my partner, "Did she hold the bag?"
or in the case of a possible swipe tag "Did you see a tag?"
The answer should be a yes or no with the proper signal.

This would only happen if it is pre-gamed and understood and I am working with a partner I can trust.
I'm still not sure if this is a deviation from HS (or ASA) mechanics or an accepted method.

This is an accepted mechanic in most of the baseball organizations I've worked for. But in softball, I've been instructed that we should never ask for help from our partner first before we make the call.

[IRISHMAFIA]

Originally Posted by chapmaja

Reminds me of a story I heard from a HS game.

One of our trainers is working the plate and the other umpire (who will be called Bob) is on the bases. Runners on first and third, so the base umpire is in the C position.

Pitch comes in and there is a snap throw from the catcher to first. All the base umpire can see is A&E. What does he call? Safe? Out? Nope, his response was to point to the plate umpire and yell "bad angle!" The plate umpire said he was so in shock, he went completely blank on what he saw and the only thing he could do was single safe. He said to this day he has no idea if she was safe or out at first, but since he could not see her out (or remember what he saw), he had to call her safe.

If you don't see evidence of the defense tag the runner out, of course, the runner is safe. Screaming why isn't necessary, nor IMO professional. Again, didn't see the out, the call must be safe.

Pointing to your partner in this situation, or any time you haven't made a call, is not going for help! An umpire who does this is ceding or "giving up" the call. The call now belongs to the partner, like it or not s/he is in the same situation. If there is no evidence of an out, the runner must be safe. There can be NO discussion as the BU already demonstrated s/he did not see any evidence of an out.