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  #1 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 05, 2005, 12:18pm
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Need some help with this one. The situation happened to me at a JUCO game on Saturday. Scramble for a loose ball near the center circle with multiple players on the ground. Common foul is called on A1 which was A's 6th team foul. While still on the ground A2 gets tangled with B2/A2 kicks at (but makes no contact) B2 and B2 responds with throwing the ball at A2. Players get to their feet looking like it is going to be a fight. B6 comes off the bench and engages A3. B6 is escorted off the court by B Asst. Coach to an area behind B's Bench and teams are seperated to allow for a consultation amoung the officials. Roughly 20 seconds later B6 returns to the floor and violently pushes A3 to the floor. Since B was the road team B6 was escorted to the locker room where he was monitored by B Asst. Coach. Police were called by the site manager and the game went on without further interuption. We administered:

(1) Common foul on A1.
(2) Technical Foul on B2
(3) Technical Foul on A2
(4) Technical Foul on B6/Indirect to B Head Coach and B6 DQ
(5) 2nd Technical Foul on B6 and 2nd Indirect to B Head Coach for B6 coming back onto the court.
(6) Team A shot four free throws and B got the ball based on point of interruption.

Questions:

(1) Is the kick by A2 and the throwing of the ball by B2 independent acts requiring shooting of free throws or can they be classified (as we did)simultaneous and offsetting technical fouls?
(2) B6 was DQ based on leaving the bench the first time. Once he's DQ'd is he no longer a player and thus cannot be given another T?
(3) Does the Coach receive anything for B6 coming onto the floor the 2nd time and/or the flagrant push?
(4) Are any/all of the fouls counted as team fouls?
(5) Even though B6 is in the locker room being monitored by Asst. Coach should we have restarted the game before the police arrived?

Please forward thoughts!! Thanks much.
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  #2 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 05, 2005, 12:25pm
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I"ll give it a try. God knows, I'm wrong often enough, but I'm feeling daring.

Foul on A1 was correct, obviously.

B2/A2 could be considered a double technical, and there would be no shots, although I could imagine it being called a false double. In that case, you'd shoot them both, in the order they occurred. (Simultaneous fouls aren't committed by opponents against each other.) Point of interruption wouldn't apply since you had a subsequent foul.

Flagrant T on B6 was correct call, and the ejection was correct.

But I wouldn't go with the original POI for the re-start. The last T determines who gets the ball, which is Team A, and it's at the division line.

Any graybeards want to give me a grade?
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  #3 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 05, 2005, 12:46pm
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Ok, here's my attempt. What actually happened:

1) common foul by A1
2) attempted kick by A2
3) ball thrown by B2
4) B6 comes off bench and "engages" A3.
5) B6 re-enters court and pushes A3 to the floor.

#1 is just a common foul. No sweat.
#2 is considered fighting (10-17-1b). Flagrant technical foul.
#3 is a flagrant technical foul. It doesn't seem to fit the defintion of fighting, however; unless any retailiation during a fight is considered fighting.
#4 depends on what he did to "engage" A3. If he fought, then eject and charge a flagrant technical foul. If he did not fight, then simply eject him with no technical (10-18, AR 19; pg.147).
#5 is definitely a flagrant technical. If it's just a push, then that's it. If he "struck" A3, then it's also fighting.

It sounds to me like #2 and #3 are not simultaneous. So I would administer these as follows:

Eject A2, B2, B6. 2 FTs for Team B, then 4 FTs for Team A and the ball to Team A at midcourt. If you decided that #4 was fighting, then it's actually 6 FTs for Team A. You'll have to decide from your own judgment of the action how many fighting penalties there will be.

[Edited by ChuckElias on Dec 5th, 2005 at 12:49 PM]
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Old Mon Dec 05, 2005, 12:54pm
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I *think* I'd rule the kick by A2 and the throw by B2 as a fight.

When B3 left the bench the first time and "engaged" A3, you need to decide if that was also a fight. If not, B3 is ejected, but there's no T. The second time he comes off and pushed A3 to the ground, I'd rule that a fight -- so it's a T and an ejection.

So, I'm left with:

1) A common foul on A1
2) Offsetting T's on A2 and B2 (add to the team total)
3) A T on B6, add to the team total, apply to the head coach
4) A shoots two throws and gets the ball at the division line.

5) A2, B2, B6 subject to the fighting suspension.
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Old Mon Dec 05, 2005, 01:04pm
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Here's what I got, under ncaa rules (juco):

1. Double T on A2 & B2, no shots POI

2. B6 ejected immediately. Not sure what "engaged" means, but if he fought with A3 then A3 gets ejected as well and both get written up for fighting and coach B gets 1 indirect. Offsetting fouls so no shots. If not a fight, I would probably not T A3 and coach B doesn't get an indirect and team A gets 2 shots for B6's idiocy. If B6 attacked A3 but A3 didn't retaliate then no T for A3 and coach B gets an indirect for B6 coming off the bench & fighting.

3. B6 is already ejected due to his single flagrant T, you can't T him again.

So let's see...if A3 fought then we have no shots and each team gets 2 team fouls added to their total for the dead ball action. If A3 did NOT fight and you didn't T him then A gets 2 shots and B gets 2 team fouls, A gets 1 team foul for the dead ball action.

A gets the ball...uhmm....I think at the spot of B6/A3 fight...? Or maybe at the original spot.

Oh yeah, once B6 is tucked away in the locker room get the game going again, no need to wait for the police.

Any comments??

edit: After reading Chuck & Bob's post I agree, A2 & B2 need to be ejected for fighting as well.

[Edited by Dan_ref on Dec 5th, 2005 at 01:08 PM]
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Old Mon Dec 05, 2005, 02:10pm
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With engaged I was trying to articulate B6 runs onto the floor, goes directly to A3 and screams at him-I have no idea why. A3 obstensibly does nothing and thus was not assesed any type of foul.

I know none of you saw the play but I found it very difficult to DQ A2 and B2 for the kick (and miss) and the throwing of the ball. I believe we should have called them two seperate unsportsmanlike acts resulting in T's and each team should have shot two FT's. Do we have any flexability or do they have to be called fighting and DQ's?

Since there is no fight between A3 and B6 I think we all agree I kicked it by giving B6 a T-I should have simply ejected him. Does the B coach get an indirect?

This still leaves the question of B6 coming on the floor the 2nd time. When is a player no longer a player? Since I had not as yet reported the ejection to the table is he still a player? If he's not a player then can any actions commited by this "individual" (fighting, flagrant T, team fouls etc.) result in a penalty to the team and/or coach? At the time I rationalized the "coach is responsible for his program" theory and thus gave him the 2nd indirect for B6's stupidity. If there is no penalty for a player who has been removed from the contest what would prevent the "individual" from doing anything he/she wants?
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Old Mon Dec 05, 2005, 02:25pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by twref
With engaged I was trying to articulate B6 runs onto the floor, goes directly to A3 and screams at him-I have no idea why. A3 obstensibly does nothing and thus was not assesed any type of foul.

I know none of you saw the play but I found it very difficult to DQ A2 and B2 for the kick (and miss) and the throwing of the ball. I believe we should have called them two seperate unsportsmanlike acts resulting in T's and each team should have shot two FT's. Do we have any flexability or do they have to be called fighting and DQ's?
Do not have to be fighting T's, they could be flagrant T's. I would *not* have assessed them seperately, I would have called them double flagrant & sent them both off.
Quote:
Since there is no fight between A3 and B6 I think we all agree I kicked it by giving B6 a T-I should have simply ejected him. Does the B coach get an indirect?


Read rule 10-11, it's a direct T for violating bench area restrictions with special provisions for going on court when there might be a fight. Immediate ejection added for this in addition to the penatly for direct T. Coach gets an indirect if the player actually fights, he des not if the player does not fight.
Quote:


This still leaves the question of B6 coming on the floor the 2nd time. When is a player no longer a player? Since I had not as yet reported the ejection to the table is he still a player?
No. He ceases being a player when he comes onto the court. The table has nothing to do with this.
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  #8 (permalink)  
Old Mon Dec 05, 2005, 02:34pm
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Quote:
Originally posted by twref
With engaged I was trying to articulate B6 runs onto the floor, goes directly to A3 and screams at him-I have no idea why. A3 obstensibly does nothing and thus was not assesed any type of foul.
Then this is just an ejection, with no foul or other penalty of any kind

Quote:
I know none of you saw the play but I found it very difficult to DQ A2 and B2 for the kick (and miss) and the throwing of the ball. I believe we should have called them two seperate unsportsmanlike acts resulting in T's and each team should have shot two FT's. Do we have any flexability or do they have to be called fighting and DQ's?
A (deliberate) kick is a fight, whether or not contact is made. See the definitions in Rule 4. B2 responded to this. So, the acts must be considered simultaneous. We might have some leeway in assessing B2 with fighting, but I'd lean toward calling it this.

Quote:
Since there is no fight between A3 and B6 I think we all agree I kicked it by giving B6 a T-I should have simply ejected him. Does the B coach get an indirect?
No indirect on leaving the bench area during a fight or when a fight might break out.

Quote:
This still leaves the question of B6 coming on the floor the 2nd time. When is a player no longer a player? Since I had not as yet reported the ejection to the table is he still a player? If he's not a player then can any actions commited by this "individual" (fighting, flagrant T, team fouls etc.) result in a penalty to the team and/or coach? At the time I rationalized the "coach is responsible for his program" theory and thus gave him the 2nd indirect for B6's stupidity. If there is no penalty for a player who has been removed from the contest what would prevent the "individual" from doing anything he/she wants?
S/he might not be a "team member" anymore, but s/he's still "bench personnel." Again, see the definitions. Your judgment as to whether the act is flagrant or fighting. The only difference is the penalty for the following game(s).

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