Questioning Partner's Call

[reffish]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

I understand where you're coming from. But my concern was to be principled but also fair. So it's easy to say be less condescending, but in real terms how can I be less condescending? So the only way I know is present myself honestly and allow to be criticized and learn from the feedback that I receive.

As far as trusting partners… I don't believe trust should trump the integrity of the game. As I said to another poster here, I would hope that my partner doesn't only give me his trust as I would be concerned with making sure to get all the plays right in my primary especially in a two-person game. So when a situation like this arises in a game, I would hope that my partner has the balls to present me with something that I may not have considered before so that we'll look like a strong crew.

I even go as far as making my partner confer to me, when I blatantly kick a call even though he doesn't know, just to make it look like he gave me new information that I only got by myself after I made the call. So this idea that conferring is a signal of embarrassment needs to challenged at the very least.

The integrity of the game...you seem more concerned with making sure your partners know that you will be there to help on any and all calls that are ruled incorrect and if you come in to "help," regardless if it is asked or not, it is expected and should be welcomed by your partner, for the integrity of the game. And this business of you going as far as making your partners confer with you after you kick a call and you know that and you want it to look like he gives you new information, for the integrity of the game. I understand that you want to get the calls right, who doesn't in this forum. Your way of getting this done is coming off as condescending and self righteous, like you are the only one on the court that has all the right information, right philosophy (have pure integrity of the game), and ability to get all the calls right. You can present yourself honestly without being condescending: when you come in to help on calls, be right (avoid using believe, think, thought, maybe) and provide the information, don't ask questions (that only creates confusion on their part). provide information and the correct ruling (by rule...).

AAU ball is a great training center for young officials, the games are rather meaningless (I know teams pay a lot to play, but still, they are meaningless in the grand scheme of basketball) and sometimes it is okay for young officials to get plays incorrect, that is how we learn, we learn from our mistakes and if we have a partner that is always coming in on plays to correct them, they lose confidence and that is not good. I guess I am trying to say, don't be a helicopter partner/assignor/official.

[MD Longhorn]

To reffish's post, I would add that continued treatment of your fellow officials in the manner you seem to think is completely appropriate (even in the face of almost everyone else here, many of whom have FAR more experience than you, telling you repeatedly that you're wrong) is most likely going to generate a bunch of gunshy officials afraid to make any calls at all for fear of you rushing in to correct them. Not healthy.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

To reffish's post, I would add that continued treatment of your fellow officials in the manner you seem to think is completely appropriate (even in the face of almost everyone else here, many of whom have FAR more experience than you, telling you repeatedly that you're wrong) is most likely going to generate a bunch of gunshy officials afraid to make any calls at all for fear of you rushing in to correct them. Not healthy.

This is getting absolutely ridiculous. I did not "repeatedly" tell him he was wrong. I just went up to him on one call and asked whether the player controlled the ball before going into the backcourt.

And who are you to deem what is healthy now? I love it when I go to a camp and get feedback from multiple officials. I love it when officials come to my games and come into the locker room and call me on calls I kick. I love it when my partner talks to me during the game and either comes up to me to save an obvious call or tells me honest feedback as we're working the game.

These type of posts are more condescending that what you're making me to be as you're imposing a belief on how officiating is supposed to be. No, you're absolutely wrong. And I hope you're man enough to accept this.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

This is getting absolutely ridiculous. I did not "repeatedly" tell him he was wrong.

Nor did I say such a thing. Reading is fundamental.

And with that I'm done.

[OKREF]

Could you please tell me why any lead would be in the C position, while working two man mechanics? This seems that you didn't trust your partner to be able to officiate his area. I would probably be upset also. Once again, while your watching the inbounds play at half court, who is watching your primary?

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Nor did I say such a thing. Reading is fundamental.

And with that I'm done.

Exactly, which is why none of your posts answered the central question of the thread.

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

It seems to me that you guys are all focusing on this specific play way too much

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

shared this to you all in this thread so that I could go through it step by step and see where my particular mistake was.

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

Again, unfortunately, we couldn't step beyond the play and discuss on principle where and when we're supposed to confer on a call as a crew.

Afro, you wrote several times that posters here were focusing on the play itself, whereas you were interested in how to deal with your partner. I understand that.

However, the first 18 posts of this thread (not counting yours) are focused on how you should have dealt with your partner. The posters here told you what they thought, and then moved on to examining the play itself. It's kinda like a reverse hierarchy -- once the "big" questions are answered posters move on to the "small" stuff -- like debating the specifics of the play that caused your situation in the first place, or the "nitty gritty" as you mentioned here:

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

the nitty gritty stuff that will forever remain ambiguous and could be argued over for days.

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

So let me be real specific in regards to the play just to entertain this discussion, which really isn't the main point of the this read. And then I'll address each of the individual points thereafter.

I have learned that the more you write about the play, the more opportunity there is for someone here to criticize you. Why? It's the nature of clarity -- the more words we write (after a certain point), the less clear we become. Officiating, and the call your partner made, is based on judgement. And if you open up discussion of the play by detailing everything that took place, you are going to receive criticism of your judgement and rules knowledge.

If you wanted to focus on the man-management aspect of your situation, I think it was a mistake to flesh out the specifics of the original play.

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

This is getting absolutely ridiculous. I did not "repeatedly" tell him he was wrong.

Read what MD Longhorn wrote again. He was saying "members of this forum were repeatedly saying you were wrong" about how you were approaching other officials. The "repeatedly [telling] him he was wrong" did not refer to how you approached your partner in the OP.

[Afrosheen]

Yes, AremRed, I see now with your post how this blew up and I flamed the fire. I guess I got too used to talking with the officials I usually work with and thought the same mindset would be seen here.

I apologize to everyone here for misleading you. I appreciate the feedback even though I may not have agreed with all of it. I thought that we could have a civil discussion without making it personal, but that again was my fault for expressing that faith in complete strangers on an internet forum.

No problem Afrosheen. I have fanned the fire on a couple threads that got off the topic I wanted to talk about. I sincerely hope you stick around here and engage in more discussion, it just takes a little while to understand the culture here.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

Yes, AremRed, I see now with your post how this blew up and I flamed the fire. I guess I got too used to talking with the officials I usually work with and thought the same mindset would be seen here.

I apologize to everyone here for misleading you. I appreciate the feedback even though I may not have agreed with all of it. I thought that we could have a civil discussion without making it personal, but that again was my fault for expressing that faith in complete strangers on an internet forum.

No harm, no foul. I apologize if you think I was being personal.

One thing I've definitely found here --- I learn more posting here than discussing in groups at clinics or between games and the like. Why? Because when you're discussing things in your own circle, people are more likely to just go with the flow, and less likely to say something that might ruffle a feather (perhaps moreso in your case since you have authority over them! How many officials who rely on you to schedule would be willing to say, "Hey boss, you kind of stepped on your partner there"? Likely none of them, even if they ALL thought it.). Here, people will give you the honest truth, an honest opinion of your actions. Take it for what it's worth - there are a lot of very very good, very very smart officials here. And don't assume all criticism is personal.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by reffish

Your way of getting this done is coming off as condescending and self righteous, like you are the only one on the court that has all the right information, right philosophy (have pure integrity of the game), and ability to get all the calls right.

Ironically, you replied to the post where I encourage my partner to confer to me when I'm egregiously wrong or I kick a call. So this idea that I'm being self-righteous or condescending in being an advocate of conferring with one another is just another made up bullcrap to prove your own point.

Look at the video that AremRed posted last night where Tom Izzo's team gets screwed on a backcourt call. Are you really saying that the other refs should not have conferred with him about the call? Mind you these are professional officials who are supposed to be at the very best, and yet they get calls wrong too.

To suggest that because a guy is a newer official, I must "baby" him until he feels man enough before going up to him talking through a call is absolutely ridiculous. You guys must be the most sensitive bunch to absolutely work with if I can't come up to and ask or give something for you to consider.

Now I have mentioned many times in this thread that I will reevaluate my approach, and evidently, those of you who are adamant to continue criticizing me will continue to ignore it so what's the point really to say that. But as a man of principle, I will not prohibit myself from telling my partner what I have or ask whether he saw what I saw.

Everything else in your post beyond this though is merely a character assault to prove your own argument and merely an exercise of self-aggrandizement.