Questioning Partner's Call

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

the coach saw it too and he became infuriated at the call. So my willingness to approach my partner was an attempt to assuage the situation

If there is a situation where you need to give your partner some information, this needs to happen before the coach gets mad, not as a result of it.

[Stat-Man]

Originally Posted by BigT

New officials are going to miss calls for 1-30 years. Their self esteem is going to be on shaky ground for a long time.

[... snip ...]

You clearly embarrassed a rookie and made him feel bad.

Having started my second season, I try to tell partners in the pregame that if they see something obvious I miss, call it if necessary and then let's discuss it at halftime or post-game (so I can turn it into a learning experience).

[rockyroad]

So let me see if I have this all down correctly...

-You went to partner with info on a disputed call

-partner took offense to your coming to him

-you apologized to him at the game site

-he sent you a bitchy email in which he tries hard to find a rule book backing for his bitchiness

-you want our advice on how to deal with this situation

Is that about it???

If so, my advice would be to ask you a question...why, why, why would you want this guy working any game you assign?

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

I understand where you're coming from and I did not give the whole story as the coach saw it too and he became infuriated at the call. So my willingness to approach my partner was an attempt to assuage the situation and I gave my partner an out by asking him whether the player gained possession with one hand before going into the backcourt where he caught it with two hands. edit: I did not overrule him.

Honestly, IMHO... this added information makes it worse. The fact that coach was barking at him when you decided to add information unsolicited... I can kind of see his ire coming up for that. If he ASKS you for information, that's different. But don't pile on when coach is on him already.

As to what to do now ... I'd be with the herd. Apologize (and I DO think you owe him one ... it's not just taking the high road now), and move on.

[Adam]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

I understand where you're coming from and I did not give the whole story as the coach saw it too and he became infuriated at the call.

Honestly, responding to the coach's tirade in this manner is only going to inflame the situation. Now, he's more likely to throw a fit later. He also sees your response as disagreement with your partner's call. Your partner also feels like you betrayed him.

Now, your partner's rule quote is irrelevant, but I think his overall point is valid.

[JRutledge]

The rule reference may or may not have anything to do with the actual rule situation you experienced. But when you go to a partner, give them information, do not ask a question. If you know that the player did not have control of the ball and that was in your primary, then give that information and let him tell you there were other factors to the call. If you are not sure, then keep your mouth shut. A lot of times we "think" things and we do not have the entire story. I know the goal is to get it right, but there is a way to do it.

Now with the childish mail, I probably would not have responded. I probably would have had a phone conversation. Emails have ways of getting off the rails, especially with a newer official.

I am also not so sure about not working with this guy again. Just have a good pregame and discuss how you handle situations where you can help each other. Because if you say you do not want to work with this person, it is going to end up with the email exchange and the assignor asking, "What is with this?" We all work with people that we are not in love with and this would be no different. Do your job, be professional and move on.

Peace

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

Honestly, IMHO... this added information makes it worse. The fact that coach was barking at him when you decided to add information unsolicited... I can kind of see his ire coming up for that. If he ASKS you for information, that's different. But don't pile on when coach is on him already.

As to what to do now ... I'd be with the herd. Apologize (and I DO think you owe him one ... it's not just taking the high road now), and move on.

I disagree. If he's kicking a rule and you know it, you're just as wrong for letting him kick it as he is for kicking it. You're not overruling or even questioning his judgement. Now, if you're questioning his judgement, that is wrong...but that isn't what we're talking about here. If he says the player controlled it in the front court, the call stands. If he says he only tipped it, then let him know what the rule is and that, by rule, it can't be a violation and leave it to him to take it from there.

I did exactly this a couple years ago with a partner who is probably in the top 2-3 in our association. Throwin on my frontcourt endline is tipped around the FT line (no where near control) and it went into the backcourt where the offense gets the ball. He called a backcourt violation. You can bet I went out to him. He was happy to fix it once I told him that we couldn't have a backcourt violation unless he judged that tip to be player control.

[Sharpshooternes]

Originally Posted by Adam

Now, if you think he's legitimately asking how you interpret that rule, I would just tell him that providing information is not the same as overruling a partner.

That is what I was going to say. Working to make sure we get calls right from a "not blowing it because we don't know the rules" standpoint is different than saying "Hey you shouldn't have called that" from 40 feet away. Change your own call with more information on a rule and me changing your call for you, they are two different things.

[Raymond]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

...
I did exactly this a couple years ago with a partner who is probably in the top 2-3 in our association. Throwin on my frontcourt endline is tipped around the FT line (no where near control) and it went into the backcourt where the offense gets the ball. He called a backcourt violation. You can bet I went out to him. He was happy to fix it once I told him that we couldn't have a backcourt violation unless he judged that tip to be player control.

Difference being in your case you had definite knowledge. In the OP, he "thought" player didn't have control and he was about 40' from the play.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Camron Rust

I disagree.

There's a HUGE difference between your play, where you're certain the other official made a rule error... and the OP where he thought that perhaps maybe the other official might be mistaken in judgement.

And to do it right after the coach started chewing strips away any semblance of credibility he could possibly have for the rest of that game, perhaps longer should he see this coach in the future. Don't neuter your partner.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Difference being in your case you had definite knowledge. In the OP, he "thought" player didn't have control and he was about 40' from the play.

Seemed like there was sufficient reason to believe his partner was kicking the rule.

And in my case, when it comes to judgement, there is no definite knowledge. Maybe my partner judged what I saw a as tip to be player control. To me it was obvious. But maybe he saw it differently. Unless I go out there to have the conversation, I would have never know and we'd have both got it wrong.

In the OP, so what if he used the word "thought". That what we judge on most of the time. He wasn't questioning the judgement of his partner, he was asking what his partner had. And if his partner said yes, there was player control, then the discussion was over. If the partner said no, then he should have then added the rule info and let his partner fix it.

[BillyMac]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

You should wait until after the game (or halftime) and ask your partner what he had on that play.

Good advice. If you really want to correct a mistake while the game is going on, a good question to ask him would be, "Did you get a good look at that?" It's more of an open ended type question that lacks any specific details, and is less critical. If he answers, "Yes", then just move on, and maybe bring it up at halftime, or after the game. If he says, "No", or, "What did you have?", then give him the specifics and let him make the call, and live, or die, with it.

[Camron Rust]

Originally Posted by MD Longhorn

There's a HUGE difference between your play, where you're certain the other official made a rule error... and the OP where he thought that perhaps maybe the other official might be mistaken in judgement.

And to do it right after the coach started chewing strips away any semblance of credibility he could possibly have for the rest of that game, perhaps longer should he see this coach in the future. Don't neuter your partner.

I still disagree. If my partner can't take the heat of getting a rule wrong, that is his problem. He should know the rules...we're not talking about some esoteric corner of the rule book here. If the coach is asking about it, all the more reason to be sure we get it right. He looks worse getting it wrong and not fixing it when he had the chance than he does for getting it right with help.

He wasn't questioning judgement. He was questioning the rule application. If the calling official judged that there was player control, the discussion is over at that point. If not, then we have a rules issue.

Unless you have the conversation, you can't know what he had.

[Afrosheen]

Originally Posted by BadNewsRef

Difference being in your case you had definite knowledge. In the OP, he "thought" player didn't have control and he was about 40' from the play.

Whoa, hold on, let's get the facts straight. The only reason why I said "I thought" is that I always leave room for doubt. That was my personal position. And that doubt was maybe that my partner saw that the player gained possession of the ball in the front court before catching it when stepping in the backcourt. I did specify in this thread on how I saw the play, in that the player touched the ball in the front court but caught the ball with both hands in the backcourt. And given that, I allowed my partner an out by asking him if the player gained possession of the ball with one hand, so even if I had absolute 100% knowledge that he was wrong, and I had the willingness to approach him, I would do it the same way, by asking him whether the player gained control of the ball in the front court.

What other way would you have addressed the situation when the coach is immediately asking you to confer with your partner when we all know that is what we're supposed to do? I wasn't going to tell the coach no I'm not going to ask him about the call, live with it coach.

And I don't understand why so many here are so antithetical to making sure we get the call right as a crew?

Secondly, why are still focused on this. I later said in this thread that I apologized to my partner for approaching him in the first place given that he took it personally, which as I've understood shouldn't even be an excuse as we're supposed to leave our egos at the door when we enter the gym.

My intention for this thread is how to approach situations where I can better present my considerations. I never asked how to overrule a partner as I would never intend to do that. And being an experienced official, I know there are times where I may come across as condescending, especially with newer officials. Hence my thread here.

[MD Longhorn]

Originally Posted by Afrosheen

What other way would you have addressed the situation when the coach is immediately asking you to confer with your partner when we all know that is what we're supposed to do? I wasn't going to tell the coach no I'm not going to ask him about the call, live with it coach.

And herein lies the problem.

If you've been officiating for any length of time at all (and I'm assuming you have - you are also an assignor), you know better. Any sport (perhaps other than football, where this gets relegated to the R). If the coach has a problem with a call, he needs to address it with the official who made the call. If the coach, as you say, asked you to confer, a good official would direct him to the other official. If your partner wants to confer, do so.

If you're going to stop down the game to discuss calls every time a coach asks you to confer with your partner on a call your partner made, you're in for a long long game (and your partner's credibility is toast).